Avoiding flopped sets

[young nut]

I would evaluate myself as a fairly decent amateur NL HE player. I have been playing for about 6 months and have educated myself by reading many books and playing tons of games. But I find that I still run into a major problem that ends up costing me a lot of money or chips.

The situation is this....
I preflop raise with AK and only end up with 1 or 2 callers. The flop comes something like A 9 2 rainbow. I bet the pot or larger and get raised! At first I used to reraise automatically. But many times I have been taken down with a hand like pocket 2's or pocket 9's when they hit the set on the flop.

I'm trying to figure out a way to either A. avoid this situation or B. read them correctly. I have a hard time giving up top pair of aces with the best kicker, but recently it almost seemd like the right move. Please let me know any experiences you might have had like this and any ways to get around this problem.

[Big Jon]

TPTK has always been a problem hand in NLHE. In limit, you can bet the flop, get raised, and then just check-call it down. In no-limit, you'll probably lose your whole stack trying to get it shown down.

There is no easy answer to when you should lay down TPTK, but if you're having your pot-sized bet on the flop with something like A 9 2 rainbow raised, that's a pretty good indicator that you're well behind. The discoordination of the board here makes the raise reek of aces up or a set. You're a big dog to these hands and should fold.

The worst is when you flop TPTK and some loosey-goosey calls you down with two mediocre pair, never raising or indicating a hand at any time.

The only thing I can tell you is that you just need experience. There isn't a set list of rules about when to lay down TPTK. It's all about the PF action, the lay of the board and the skill level of the raiser. With experience, you'll be able to make the right play more often than not.

[young nut]

I think my problem might be playing low limit games. I would rate myself better than 95% of the players i encounter. I would like to play higher stakes games, but my bankroll won't allow me to. But that is why i always wonder when to call the raise, because I've seen opponents raise all in with A 10 on that flop. They do it because they don't know any better. But usually I give my opponents the benefit of the doubt, and just assume their skill level is decent. But its kinda hard to seeing so many dumb plays.

I feel like I have plenty of experience, and I have certainly learned how to read the players i play in my home game. I guess it is just the online opponents that boggle me.

[young nut]

wow....it just happened to me again..
I sat down at 25$ NL table with 10 bucks.
Dealt pocket queens, I raise to a dollar, only one guy calls, no reraise. flop comes 2 4 J rainbow. I bet 1.50, he calls. Turn comes a 2. I bet 5 dollars, he raises me all in, and turns over pocket Jacks!

Sometimes I just can't stand this game

[hulk3rules]

Yeah, well I had it worse last night. 50nl table with a BB of 50 cents. I get dealt 55 in the BB (first hand) and it gets raised UTG to 2.50. 2 more callers so I decide I'll see the flop. Flop comes 5 3 2. UTG comes out for 6, and it gets folded to me so I min raise to 12. He min-raises again and I just know I'm up against aces. I push it in, he calls, and sure enough, had AA and hit it on the river.

So yeah, hands like this will send me right back to the limit table. It's hard to avoid beats like this sometimes

[rkaufman]

I think my problem might be playing low limit games.

Don't be like that. Bad players make the game beatable. Now, as far as your top pair versus set problem goes, I'd recommend being somewhat less aggressive with it. I think it's in Ciaffone and Reuben's book it says something like "if I raise before the flop, and a K (or A) comes on the flop, and I bet, I'm telling my opponent, 'hey, i've got top pair.' if he calls, then he either doesn't believe me, or can beat it." So if you're called on the flop... be careful. After all, you still only have one pair.

Also, make sure you're getting full value for when the situation is reversed... when you flop a set versus a pre-flop raiser.

Rob

[tadams]

When I have a small or middle wired pair in NL I try to see the flop for as little as possible. However, if the bet is too high I am forced to throw my hand away before the flop. A small or middle pair just doesn't have a high enough expected value to call a large bet. Remember AK has about a 50% chance to win against any other hand except AA or KK. So calling with a small or middle pair for a large bet is a bad play because not only could some have AK, but any pair above their pair. Therefore, I recommend you increase your preflop bet to prevent these types of hands from entering the pot cheaply. Then on the flop you can bet enough to get a better read on your opponent's hand. One of the nice things about NL is that you can manipulate the pot size in order to get your opponents to make mistakes.

Another good play against bad players is to limp in with most of your hands including AK and bet enough on the flop to cause anyone who calls to be making a mistake. The amount depends on your opponents and what you think they may have. I like limping with every hand if the players are not very good. I will also play quite a few more hands if I can get in for cheaply.

I also don't like to bet the pot because I think it encourages people to make a play at me. Either because the pot becomes so large or because they don't believe I would bet so much with a strong hand. I also vary my bet depending on the texture of the board, but usually it's right around half of the pot. It's more if there are a lot of draws especially flush draws since so many people like to play suited cards.

Lastly, I would suggest thinking about all the possible hands your opponent may have given the play of the hand so far. For example, if you make a large bet preflop you can eliminate a lot of the hands that would be against you. Of course you always have to consider how your opponent plays when deciding what type of hand he could have.

Tom

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
When I have a small or middle wired pair in NL I try to see the flop for as little as possible. However, if the bet is too high I am forced to throw my hand away before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually do the same, but I feel my problem might be playing against less educated opponents who will play their pair not matter what the cost. So I might be better off limping in rather than trying to bet my stack preflop and chase them off their pocket 2's.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

...but I feel my problem might be playing against less educated opponents who will play their pair not matter what the cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the distinctive cry of the "I play NL so that my two good cards should win and still they still lose!"

[DeeJ]

Sometimes you just have to let your top pair/pocket pair go. If you bet into an Axx Kxx flop etc especially against more than one opponent your oppoent knows you have something worth better, likely top pair. If he has 2 pair or a set he will likely raise. You must try to get to the end cheaply or give up. there's another hand along in a minute...

If it happens again (or maybe thrice) vs the same opponent you are going to have to make a move, but you will do so in the knowledge you are more likely to be calling a bluff or weaker hand. Game theory suggests? /images/graemlins/confused.gif