My confessional...

[Josh W]

i screwed up. big time. Well, as 'big time' as somebody can at a poker-related event.

I'm playing 25-50 at the hustler. The game is ludicrous. I'm in seat 3, and dave is in seat 1. he's uberaction. and then some. raising blind, capping the turn with one overcard. you know the kind.

well, he raises preflop, and i threebet on the button with KJc. he caps (he's looked at his cards), and i call.

flop comes QT6...he bets and i call. yeah, i know i could raise here, but i plan on calling til the river, then raising if i miss..he's gonna see the river, so i might as well see it for cheap unless i make my draw.

turn is a 2, he bets, i call
river is a 9. I have the nuts...no pair on board, no flush.

He bets.
I raise
He threebets
I 4bet
He 5bets
I six bet
He 7bets
I 8 bet.

the table starts to complain "chop chop"

He 9 bets.

I see little reason to slow down.

I 10bet.

he 11 bets.

The whole table, for about 4 bets now, has been saying "You both have King Jack"....so, if he has ears, he knows what I have...the whole table has told him

So I 12 bet.

He 13bets, and I decide to just call.

He has 800 left in front of him, I have over 1000 left.

He turns over QQ.

Yeah, I lost about $800 there.

I do NOT play goot

J

[piguy24]

Josh, I had a very similar thing happen at a $10-20 game. I had AJ and the flop came KQT. The other player held J9 and we capped the flop with two other players in. The other two folded on the turn so it was heads up at the river. I bet, he raised, I 3 bet, he 4 bet, I 5 bet, he 6 bet, and I just called. He later said he wasn't even thinking of AJ and would've raised until he was broke. Since then, I've never stopped raising with the nuts unless they show me the same cards. In your case, especially against a superLAG I say keep jamming it.

[Ulysses]

Josh,

Yeah, you screwed up pretty bad. Stopping is horrible, of course. But stopping without at least asking, "want to just go all-in?" or something to that effect is even worse.

I made two mistakes in NL this weekend where I dragged multi-thousand $$$ pots but in each case lost over $500 in value by raising too much. Those hurt worse than any of the bad calls or suckouts.

[ronzoni]

Shame on you. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[mike l.]

we have a lot in common. i wouldve probably caved into the pressure around 7th or 8th bet. we suck.

[joker122]

I don't play live much, but isn't asking to go all-in here within the rules?

[Josh W]

As a general rule, I hate the "you wanna just go allin" approach, although if you (er, me) are gonna stop with the nuts, at least giving the "all in" approach some thought has merit.

I hate it cuz:

a.) I'll only do it with the nuts (or second nut in a jackpot game where if i lose, I win the jackpot

b.) By asking that, I feel like it announces my hand as "the nuts". As such, my opponent will realize this, and stop very very soon. Instead, just going one bet at a time usually will bleed more out of them.

The key is going one bet at a time. If you start going zero bets, like I did, then you should give up poker.

Josh

[andyfox]

So I went to look up confessional, to see if you really meant confession, and the first word I turn to in the dictionary is "cockchafer," which was defined as a large flying beetle. Their defintion; I have another, but I'll let others elaborate.

We've all been there, done that. Sometimes we're SURE they have it too. I once check-called the river with the nuts. Talk about a confessional. Or cockchafer. I have 8-7o in the BB. By the turn the board is 6-4-3-5 rainbow. Ends up just me and UTG. When UTG 6-bets, I re-look at the board, which now, somehow, has two spades (of which I haven't any) and look at the dealer and, while I call, say, "Please don't put a spade on the river." UTG, a friend, says, "Yes, spade, SPADE!" Some friend, huh? The river was a non-spade king and I checked and called.

And my hand was half-good. Just like me.

Regards,
Andy

[andyfox]

You should not give up poker. It was a silly mistake. The greats make silly mistakes all the time. Dimaggio once carried what he thought was the third out head down towards the dugout while the winning run scored.

I don't like asking to go all in with the nuts because it seems like stealing to me. Perhaps I should post this on the psychology forum.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The key is going one bet at a time. If you start going zero bets, like I did, then you should give up poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I agree with everything in that post, Josh. Except for the whole stopping poker thing. I mean, I'll be coming back to Commerce in a few weeks, so you'll have to play then. I was just saying, if you're gonna stop....

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like asking to go all in with the nuts because it seems like stealing to me. Perhaps I should post this on the psychology forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, when I'm back at Commerce in a few weeks, I'd love to have you play in the NL game w/ me! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Josh W]

as long as it isn't the weekend of the 24th, i'll be there. first two rounds on me, of course!

J

[andyfox]

I've played no-limit exactly twice in my life: once at the Bike with some 2+2 buddies; it was a $100 max buy-in and I ended up losing my first $100 (to Rick N.) and then winning $106 on my second hundred. The other time was at my house against Tommy A. and my son and I merely called Tommy's bet when I had four aces (5-card draw, double-draw, deuces and one-eyed jacks wild) even though we weren't playing for money. Tommy had bet and then drew two on the first draw; he stood pat on the second draw.

AMHWG. Tommy had a straight.

Really.

[Rick Nebiolo]

hero once got in 17 big bets on the river in a 15/30 with the nut straight against a set. the amazing thing was the guy she creamed is normally a total nit.

this occured shortly after reading a tommy angelo post about firing out the bets with style.

~ rick

ps i just realized this won't make you feel any better.

[EZ$$$]

[ QUOTE ]
plan on calling til the river, then raising if i miss..

[/ QUOTE ]

If you miss how many bets before you stop?

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
He 13bets, and I decide to just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Josh,

what was the decision based on?

congrats on the big pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kenny

[Michael Davis]

"a.) I'll only do it with the nuts (or second nut in a jackpot game where if i lose, I win the jackpot"

I never understood players who do this. If it becomes obvious you are against the nuts, why would you want to lose more money just because you are getting the jackpot?

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

You are totally lying about the dictionary part. It's just a cheap way to include cockchafer in your post. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

How long have you been holding that?

-Michael

[Warik]

Why not keep throwing chips in if you have the nuts? Who cares if he has KJ too? The rake's not going to go any higher after 13 bets.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not keep throwing chips in if you have the nuts? Who cares if he has KJ too? The rake's not going to go any higher after 13 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's almost just courtesy. You're usually just wasting time. I guess I've never got up to 13 bets before...but I dunno.

Especially with all those other players chanting KJ, only a copmlete moron (which happened to be the case here) would go 13 bets on that board without kj.

[Mackie]

The real bummer is you missed the opportunity to tilt the entire table with zero risk - keep putting in one bet at a time but slow down and think about each bet for a while.

[Ulysses]

OK. Fine. I'll admit it. I did it once. About a year and a half ago, I think.

Board was two diamonds on the turn and I had the nut straight. But I didn't have any diamonds. We went about 12 bets and I finally stopped, since I figured he must be freerolling me. The river blanked, so I bet out, just in case. He raised, and I called, since it was an obvious chop.

I flipped over my cards and he proudly turned over top set. He had about 8BB left. Ugh.

That's the last time I stopped v. an unknown player. I've stopped other times, but it always involves a regular who says something like "El Diablo - we both have KJ, right?"

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Because it's almost just courtesy. You're usually just wasting time. I guess I've never got up to 13 bets before...but I dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've gone 13 bets thinking that your hand is better than your opponents', then haven't you already been very un-courteous trying to take all his money? Why the sudden concern for courtesy?

Actually, why do YOU have to be the courteous one? "Hey! You both have KJ!" Fine - if you both have KJ, let your opponent do the calling.

I don't have the luxury of a no heads-up cap (nor do I have the luxury of a live game higher than $2! ACK!), but if I'm headsup with the nuts and my opponent keeps raising, I'll be needing somebody to help me keep throwing chips in when my arm gets tired.

[ QUOTE ]
Especially with all those other players chanting KJ, only a copmlete moron (which happened to be the case here) would go 13 bets on that board without kj.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I'm sure it's not the first time it's happened to anybody... calling the river headsup with the nuts when you could raise is -EV, even if the whole table hates you afterward when you both show the same hand.

[RydenStoompala]

Whose to say the math head would have gone all-in? Maybe his lack of sanity had a basement. I dont know if you lost the opportunity to take another $800, or maybe just another bet or two. Who cares with a pot like that? Oh I know..."this does not happen very often, but when it does you must maximize the profit potential,raising until you run out of money..." When it finally happens to me, I'll let you know how I did. In the meantime, NICE HAND.

[Sponger15SB]

pssshhh you think you guys are pussies, how is this?

$2/4 hold em... (wait is this the mid/high stakes forum? ah screw you)

i had been talking mild [censored] to the guy on my left for some time about his poor play and bad poker theory (ah the irony), so i knew he was pissed at me when this hand came up.

i had QQ in LP, 2 callers to me, I raised, guy in my left calls, my maniac friend limp-reraises, 4 people see the flop.

Flop: Q 7 7

My friend bets, I raise, Guy to my left calls, everyone folds and me and the guy who I talked [censored] to calls. We go heads up to the turn

Turn: 6

I bet, He raises, I reraise, and before I even get my chips in the pot he blurts out "unlimited raising heads up?", he reraises, I just call cause I am confused as hell.

River: blank

I check, He bets, I check-raise (i wasn't quite convinced he had quads and I wanted to see another bet in there), He reraises (my thinking: ah crap), and I just call.

And he turns over pocket 6's.

everyone looked at me like i was crazy for stopping so soon?

[tolbiny]

You should look up the Tommy angelo thread where he calls the floor person over to ask if he still gets the bad beat jackpot if he doesnt call the final bet but mucks his hand face up, the final board is something like 6,6,A,A,A- and his opponant quickly saay "call the bet" and turns over A,9 so that tommy will call. Not only does he attempt to get out of paying one more BB with a very large jackpot- but he does it in such a way that he knows for sure that he will win it.

[J_V]

I never liked this story at all. It's certainly not worth the shirade IMO. You are risking forfeiting the jackpot (by talking about the hand) to save one big bet. Also, you announce to the world that you are trying to be super nitty.

It also looks like you're bragging about the fold, "Hey look at me, i'm folding quads" and w/ tommy we all know that's not the case (since nothing could be more anti-tommy), but perception is reality.

If it were me, I'd just payoff the bet and win the money.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
flop comes QT6...he bets and i call. yeah, i know i could raise here, but i plan on calling til the river, then raising if i miss

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the raising if you miss part. Maybe calling if you miss. Not raising. Just basic rules for playing against maniacs, better hand not folding, could be reraised by worse. Huge -EV play.

[LuckyBellar]

I am surprised nobody commented on the greatest sin in this post. What is anyone at the table doing commenting on a hand that is in play. This would be a perfect time to go after the first player who interjected his opinion about a chop. You could also go after the dealer for not stopping the table talk immediately. This gives you ample reason to stiff the dealers for an hour or so and partially make up for your timid call.

[Josh W]

First off, lemme say that I posted this on the wrong forum.

Talk to glen or gabe or somebody who has seen me at the hustler. I could run for president of the joint. I know EVERYBODY. I get along with EVERYBODY. And, because of this and other reasons, EV means more to me than dollars and cents. It means common courtesy.

The 'right' play isn't always the most valuable play. it's the RIGHT play. If these were nameless faceless opponents, I would never stop. But when common sense dictates that I'm just wasting time (and, heaven forbid, what happens if the dealer scoops the pot after the betting is done, then needs to chop the 7 or 8 rack pot???), I'll be curteous and stop.

But of course, I made a massive -EV play.

More importantly, I think, to the person who said I shouldn't tip the dealers for an hour cuz they allowed table talk...please.

There's a right way and a wrong way to handle this. Your way is fine for 6 year olds. What should be done, and what was done was....after I folded the next hand, I went up to the person who started talking about the KJ. I politely made sure he saw the error in his ways. He acknowledged that he did, and apologized. Then, once the dealer was pushed, I told her the potential damage by allowing table talk.

SO WHY SHOULD I PUNISH THE NEXT TWO DEALERS FOR ONE DEALERS ERROR? Please. I beg of you...tell me why.

Oh, so that was my $800 mistake. Today I made a (no joke) $12,000 mistake at a poker table. Bleh.

Josh

[jerome baker]

na

[Josh W]

http://www.pokerpages.com/tournament/result9718.htm

[cosmo kramer]

I live in Fresno Josh and don't know Saul. There's only 3 poker rooms within 30 miles, so I usually know all the players, or can at least recognize a face. Anyway, good job. Looks like he got lucky at the right times.