Call this river? raise preflop?

[DMBFan23]

Absolute Poker 1$/2$.

Hero is CO with K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG Folds, UTG+1 calls, mp1 calls, mp2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks

Flop (7 SB) K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

checks around to me, who bets. BB, UTG+1, MP1, and MP2 call.

Turn (6 BB) 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checks around to me again, and I bet. UTG+2 calls.

River (8 BB) 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG2 checks, I bet, UTG+2 raises, Hero...?

[illunious]

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Re: Call this river? raise preflop?

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yes and yes

[deacsoft]

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Re: Call this river? raise preflop?

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yes and yes

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I agree.

[HajiShirazu]

Raise preflop-to not do so is criminal.
A 3-bet on the river is close and may actually be the right play but in the heat of battle I just call the river.

[DMBFan23]

Haji,

I seriously considered the three bet on the river, but then wussed out. that would have been a stellar play.

[chief444]

This should be an automatic pf raise from CO.

Were you really considering folding the river or are you wondering if you should call or 3-bet? I think it's close between calling and 3-betting but I'm thinking I would probably 3-bet.

[k000k]

Im in agreement with the general population here, I'd raise PF and 3bet the river...

What are you worried about? There's no flush or the turn would be raised.. It's heads up, what would he possibly be waiting around for? Same for a set..

I'm thinking he has K3 Q3, although 33 would be in my head.... If he had anything good he woulda popped you on the turn.. That river raise sounds like he hit a kicker, or is trying to buy a pot..

If he has K5 Q5 K7 Q7 then he sucks for not betting more. If he has better, well, nobody is that much of a chicken on the turn when they beat top 2 pair. If that's the case, thank him for saving you a ton of bets!

[cjromero]

I would raise preflop and 3-bet the river. Party micro players almost never wait until the river to jam a flush they made on the turn.

[Peter Harris]

i raise PF and 3-bet the river; if the player has shown to delay a raise (i.e. turned flush) i may call down; with no reads i 3-bet.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[DMBFan23]

I didnt have any specific reads, although this table was craftier than I'm used to.

here's the rest of the hand:

Hero calls and shows Kc Qc: two pair, Kings and Queens
UTG+2 shows 2d 4d: flush, King High, and HHIG.

a three bet on the river would have been great here in retrospect, for value, and in addition I might get a small flush to fold. I think the reason he didnt raise me on the turn was the fact that his flush was so low

[adanthar]

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a three bet on the river would have been great here in retrospect, for value, and in addition I might get a small flush to fold

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No, it isn't. No, you won't.

In order for a bet to be for value when you've just been checkraised, you must be good 2/3 of the time unless you plan on folding when he caps it. You are not good 2/3 of the time to a river checkraise, even with top 2.

And no, he won't fold the flush. Moreover, his flush being low has nothing to do with why he didn't raise the turn.

[DMBFan23]

assuming no cap, don't I only have to be good slightly more than 3/5 of the time to beat the ev of calling the checkraise as opposed to threebetting? (yes, this is practically 2/3)

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Moreover, his flush being low has nothing to do with why he didn't raise the turn.

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Yes, I see that he got an extra bet out of me this way, if he assumed I'd fold the river after a turn raise. but with me leading the betting the whole way, doesnt he figure I'd call his turn raise and his river bet (for 3 bb either way)?

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And no, he won't fold the flush.

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does this mean I shouldn't usually fold small flushes to a three bet on the river, the threebet coming from a tight player?

not trying to be a dick, just trying to learn.

[Bill Smith]

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I would raise preflop and 3-bet the river. Party micro players almost never wait until the river to jam a flush they made on the turn.

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Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I see this done a lot. I'd have to wuss out and just call the river. Definitely raise PF though.

[adanthar]

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assuming no cap, don't I only have to be good slightly more than 3/5 of the time to beat the ev of calling the checkraise as opposed to threebetting? (yes, this is practically 2/3)

[/ QUOTE ] If there's no cap, you have to be good 50% (ignore the call; you're just wagering another bet, your third, that your hand is good.) But most of the time, river checkraise = cap, which means you'll either make 1 or lose 2. So, 66%. Maybe a little less since he won't cap *every* time.
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Yes, I see that he got an extra bet out of me this way, if he assumed I'd fold the river after a turn raise. but with me leading the betting the whole way, doesnt he figure I'd call his turn raise and his river bet (for 3 bb either way)?

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If you have AQ, TT, or possibly even KJ, do you call this raise?
If a fourth diamond falls on the river and you called the raise, what should he do if you check? If you bet?
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does this mean I shouldn't usually fold small flushes to a three bet on the river, the threebet coming from a tight player?

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...you fold small flushes getting 15:1+ to call?

[k000k]

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does this mean I shouldn't usually fold small flushes to a three bet on the river, the threebet coming from a tight player?

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Depends on the situation.... If you have 53s and the board is AAKKQ with 3 of your suit, and 3 opp's betting like mad and the preflop was capped, you're toast...

It also depends on HOW small your flush is.. If you have 2 of a suit, and there's 3 on the board, there's 8 of the suit left.

The chances 1 random hand ALSO has 2 of that suit is 23%, or 3.4:1. If you hold the 4 and the 8, and 3 higher cards are on the board, then there's 3 higher and 5 lower of your suit left. IF he also has a flush, it's ~50/50 that it's higher than yours, your chance of a higher flush got cut in half, 11.5% (~8:1). Would he play 65s? Is he in the blinds?

If there's 3 cards of the suit LOWER than 7 on the board, then there's only one lower card, the other MUST be higher, so your odds of losing are the full 23%.

[DMBFan23]

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If you have AQ, TT, or possibly even KJ, do you call this raise?

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this is a good point, although I probably wouldnt call a river checkraise with any of those hands either. are you advocating a call of his river checkraise? I would probably do it again in retrospect, without a read on him. although I just moved up in limits, so I probably need to tighten up my "typical" read

[adanthar]

On the river? Yes, you call everything TP and higher. The odds are too good.

Your questions indicate that you don't really understand how river calls/raises work. They're pretty simple: In order for you to raise, you have to be good 66% (50% if you're sure you won't be 3 bet). In order to call, you have to be good 1:X times (where X is the # of BB in the pot.)

Now, here's the critical part: when you are raised, you will always, 100% of the time, without question be good 1:X times with almost ANYTHING above one pair that you think is worth a bet on the river against virtually any player in a heads up situation. You *might* fold TP, weak kicker when the flush hits the river; that is about the limit. Every other time- and I see this over and over again in micro posts even after the Ed Miller thread- people are asking if they should fold hands that win 20, 30, even 40%+ of the time in gigantic pots. (I don't mean you specifically, BTW. The post above yours is a good example of this; the math is right, but NOBODY CARES what the chances of a higher flush are because it's an automatic, indisputable call- and that includes an AAKKQ board in a big pot when your sole opponent bets the river.)

You don't think a guy that played 42s UTG plays K3s exactly the same way, or that somebody betting on an AAKKQ board in microlimits has a 10% chance of betting his trash into you to get you to fold instead of splitting?

On the TURN is an entirely separate story. Your odds of winning should not be 1:X; they should be 2:X+1, because you will be calling a bet on the river. This will dramatically cut down your odds and you can sometimes find a TPTK fold in a small pot when the board is scary, 2 pair when there's a straight flush draw showing, etc. That, however, is about it.