Baffled by old article of Mason's

The following is from the article "A Note on Steaming" that Mason wrote in POKER DIGEST. I'm not sure exactly which issue but I believe it was published in 1999.


"My guess is that many steamers, who claim they are playing well -- aren't -- and this lack of understanding is what makes them snap. It's not the bad-beat that was just put on them.

Here's an example. Suppose, when playing hold 'em, you are in an early position in a large multiway pot. You hold QsJs and the flop is Jc7d2h.

Of course, you bet because you don't want to give a free card, and 5 people call. The turn is a blank. You bet again for the same reason, and this time you get 4 callers. On the river, another blank hits, and you lose to someone who makes 2 little pair. You played your hand right, but it caused you to go berserk.

Well, you didn't play your hand right! Because of the size of the pot, you were going to get lots of callers and you knew this. Furthermore, anyone with a small pair was correct to call, due to the number of bets in the center of the table. Thus, you used strategy that was inaccurate for this particular situation (even though I know many players who will play in this way every time, and argue they are correct to do so)."


I am having difficulty finding the "correct" strategy to employ with respect to this example. Ideally you would want to try to reduce the field by getting a raise in, forcing your opponents to call 2 bets. However, given that you are in early position, the only way to do so is if you try for a check-raise. But in a loose-passive game like the one described, trying for a check-raise appears to be very risky; I would be concerned that it would just get checked around.


Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

i'm not sure exactly what mason meant here but if theres one thing i've gathered from experience its that a loose-passive game of LL hold'em like the one described is all but unbeatable (which is why i prefer the loose aggressive, or even tight games).


maybe i was just playing bad the few times i have played in loose passive but i've found some key points that make me think it wasn't so much my errors as the type of game.


first, you have much less opportunity to make your opponents make a big mistake by calling two bets cold when they're not getting odds, more often they will only have to call one bet and will either be making less of a mistake or actually be playing correctly.


second, with nearly everyone staying till at least the turn if not the river, the pot is so large that it is nearly always correct for your opponents to be chasing. "their collective bad play makes their individual plays correct" to borrow a quote from a fellow poster who's name i can't recall.


third, even when you get the chance to raise, protective raises are useless, you will not drive anyone out though you may cause them to make a mistake, if you are not raising for value there isn't any point in raising at all which means semi-bluffs and other advanced plays are quite useless.


fourth, the average winning hand will be much to closer the possible nuts of the final board, since more people will be in to the end. which means top pairs got little shot at getting out alive w/o help.


finally, the players are loose so you can't bluff them out as you could in a tight game.


i'm sure you've read that drawing hands go up in value and big pairs and big offsuit cards go down in value in these games. i think about the only way to even put a dent in these games is to bet and raise (if you get a chance) your draws since you will get many callers giving you odds for you money.


for hands like the one in question i have no idea what i'd do, bet and pray probably, i'm not sure if i could just check along with top pair decent kicker, i agree with you that you should raise when you get a chance with that hand though, at least you can make your opponents make a mathematical mistake.


in TOP it says a good player is at war with luck, in a game like this luck has to be your ally as hitting a hand is THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL WIN A POT (so you better make sure its got a ton of money in it by betting/raising the draws).


for me, a LL game like this seems like its just a crapshoot, no strategy, no advanced plays, just a bunch of zombies checking and calling or checking through till they get to the end then they see who got lucky enough to end up with the best hand. disgusting and extremely frustrating i say!

I can't believe this response. Loose-passive games are the easiest to beat. You should be able to do it on auto-pilot.

I'll just poke my head in here.


I just got back from losing 40 big bets at canterbury in minnesota, over 6 hours at 3 6. This is my worst loss ever. This is the day after I won 100 big bets on paradise. I was never on tilt. I only had 2 bad beats. I think I was playing pretty well. But basically, top pair good/ace kicker in these games are worthless. Sure, bet em, you MAY win. You get raised or bet into at ANY point (including the flop) your hand is dead. You will not thin the field by raising on the flop or preflop. People will call the flop and sometimes the turn with bottom/middle pair, gut shot straights, and back end flushes. People will call the flop and call preflop with any hand they would have played otherwise. If anyone, at any time, shows aggression towards your top pair, fold.


Limp preflop with any holding other than AKs and AA. Why? Because you will not win the majority of the hands with QQ JJ TT AKo AQ, and if you raise with any of these hands the people that called will be MORE inclined to stay until the river if they catch any part of the flop. You may be FAVORED, but chances are you will not win.


Do not bluff, ever.


Do not bet middle pair. Do not bet a less-than 10 outer.


And just for closure, here are my bad beats of the night.


#1


Someone in MP raises preflop. I 3 bet next to him with TT. Five (5) people cold call 3 bets. I flop trips and lose to back door flush (K6s fromt the button).


#2 (last hand of the night)


AQo in EP, I raise, six (6) people cold call 2 bets. Flop is Q 7 3, I bet, everyone calls. Turn is 2, I bet, 3 people call. River is 8, I bet, get raised, call all-in (and stand up and put my coat on)and lose to Q8o in LP.


Basically I'm sick of loose passive. People can talk about these are the best tables etc etc.. its BS. It sucks. Even if you are a strong player, your variance goes insane on these tables, and at least where I play the rake eats you alive. I'm tired of it, I give up. I'm going to play some more PP, and I'm going to go back to canterbury in 1 month with $400 and play 6 12, because I can't take it anymore.


But I'm not bitter.

perhaps i am unenlightened.


dynasty can you explain how you go about beating a game like this please?


seriously i want to know how you go about doing it i don't mean to sound defiant of your words. help me out please.

I have never actually played in a B+M casino and

usually play on the higher limits on PP...It sounds like your game is too strong playing tourists on 3/6...You only start with solid hands and probably use strategies such as check/raise, semi bluff etc.

These are all wasted on LL LP. I think the cleaner has got it right, if you have 4-5 players seeing the flop I think you have to play

super aggressive with an A K four fluh and

the higher straight draws. I imagine the smaller

pairs would be worth betting in any postion because youd get paid off with trips/full house.

But even then it doesnt sound like its worth the

frustration. If you made 100 BBs on PP it sounds like your a winner online. I like those games because they have relatively solid aggressive players who are there for one reason...TO MAKE

MONEY...but if you play your A1 game, muck on the flop if you dont catch and play solid starters. e.g mucking JT UTG...small pairs in EP...and ofcourse stay off tilt...YOU WILL WIN CONSISTANTLY.


Good luck on 6/12


P.S BTW...for any conspiracy theorists out there

I dont work for PP!

I wasn't trying to suggest you were unenlightened. I have routinely beat these games in Vegas. Although, they may not be quite as loose or quite as passive as what you're familiar with. Regardless, I'd still describe most 4-8 Vegas games as loose and mildly passive.


I can at least respond to the difficulties you pointed out in your original post.


first, you have much less opportunity to make your opponents make a big mistake by calling two bets cold when they're not getting odds, more often they will only have to call one bet and will either be making less of a mistake or actually be playing correctly.


Players in these games seem to make so many small mistakes by calling with remarkably weak holdings (3-flush on the flop, bottom pair with no kicker, and worse) that I don't think you need to have them make big mistakes in order to beat the game. But, don't worry, they're still making plenty of big mistakes.


second, with nearly everyone staying till at least the turn if not the river, the pot is so large that it is nearly always correct for your opponents to be chasing. "their collective bad play makes their individual plays correct" to borrow a quote from a fellow poster who's name i can't recall.


I don't mind if my opponents are getting odds to chase me. As long as they are the ones doing the chasing. Be happy that everybody is pumping money into the pot while you've got the best hand.


third, even when you get the chance to raise, protective raises are useless, you will not drive anyone out though you may cause them to make a mistake, if you are not raising for value there isn't any point in raising at all which means semi-bluffs and other advanced plays are quite useless.


I'm don't agree with you semi-bluff comment. I would always raise with a four-flush in this type of game. It's real easy to get a free card in these games.


Some players seem obsessed with using raising as a tool for driving other players out of the hand (which, of course, is a good use for raising). But, in this type of game, you should be raising with hands which you want everybody (or most) to call. I'm always thrilled to have AA UTG, raise, and see all 9 other players call. It warms my heart.


This is the way I usually think: If they fold to my raise, that's good because my % chance of winning the pot has gone up. If they call two bets cold, that's even better because I've got them beat and they need to catch a lucky card in order to beat me. My dream scenario is to hold AA and have the pot capped pre-flop with all 10 players in the hand.


fourth, the average winning hand will be much to closer the possible nuts of the final board, since more people will be in to the end. which means top pairs got little shot at getting out alive w/o help.


Based on my experience, I just can't agree with this. I've won plenty of good-sized pots with nothing but top pair, top kicker or a pocket overpair.


finally, the players are loose so you can't bluff them out as you could in a tight game...hitting a hand is THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL WIN A POT...for me, a LL game like this seems like its just a crapshoot, no strategy, no advanced plays


There's truth in these statements. It's very rare that you'll be able to bluff your way to a pot. Example: You'll get called down by an opponent holding JJ on an A,K,4 flop. So, don't try to represent Aces if you don't have them. However, if you do have an Ace, you'll make a killing of those same players unwilling to fold JJ.


So, how do you beat the games? Play "straight-fowardly". Bet & raise your real hands for value hoping to get called by as many people as possible. Don't get fancy. Don't try any "advanced plays".


I'm in an exact opposite position. After beating the Vegas 4-8 games fairly easily, I've been experiencing difficulty beating the next level- Mirage 6-12 and Bellagio 8-16. I've got to improve my ability to win the pot when I DON'T have the best cards. Can you give me any adive?

When the pot reaches 10 bets preflop, your opponents will have odds to call with pretty much any piece of the flop and be correct to do so. Once this happens, I start thinking about how to present my opponents with a 2 bet decision if I have flopped something decent yet vulnerable (overpairs, top pair big stick, small two pair).


In the example given by Mason, you can try betting out if you have some aggressive opponents on your left who are likely to raise with draws or hands worse than yours, or try a check raise if some aggressive opponents are in late position. If the pot is truly large, you might want to wait until the turn to make your move, where you can face your opponents with 2 big bets. Against passive opponents (whom I have nearly forgotten how to play against, in my normally quite aggressive games) you might see if the flop checks around and then bet the turn if it looks harmless, probably folding for a raise or just checking the river if you get called and don't improve.

This situation comes up very often in low limits online, and I choose to play it like this:


1. Check the flop and hope to check raise the button (for some reason they seem to bet with any 2 cards on the button if it is checked to them). If it is checked through it isn't a major disaster..see #2


2. If the flop is checked through i will bet the turn. Many passive opponents will call the flop for 1 bet with just about anything, but upon not improving on the turn will fold. (The pot is much smaller than it would have been if you bet the flop).


3. depending on how many are still left Ill either check or bet the river.


I don't know if this is the right way to do it but that's what I would do. Its very easy to check raise online in my experience.


Wardy

I believe this article is also in one of the poker essay books and I posted about this a while ago, asking the same question. I remember Mason responding, but not really explaining how to play the hand. Hopefully he can answer more fully this time.


Haven't ready the other responses as yet, maybe there's something here already that will help us out on this one.

Mason hasn't given enough info. about how many bets are in the pot preflop. I assumed, since he said you were in early position with QJs, that there were, say, 5-6 players in an unraised pot. Thus there would not be 10 bets preflop.


With a flop of J-7-2, what kind of drawing hand would entice an aggressive opponent to bet? With a vulnerable hand like Q-J, why wait to give someone a free card?


If there was a raise pre-flop, then I agree, there may be a better way to play. If the raise was from late position (which it usually is in a large multi-way pot), then you can wait and try to check-raise, either on the flop or turn.


Mason says you didn't play the hand correctly when you bet the flop and bet the turn. I would say you didn't play the hand correctly by playing Q-J from early position to begin with.

I can!

"For some reason they seem to bet with any 2 cards on the button if it is checked to them"


That reason would be because it is usually correct to do so.

"My dream scenario is to hold AA and have the pot capped pre-flop with all 10 players in the hand"


it happens all the time in LA low limit...

I'm not sure if I agree with your opinions about the loose passive game, I do like you're description of the players though.


"a bunch of zombies checking and calling or checking through till they get to the end then they see who got lucky enough to end up with the best hand".


I'm fond of referring to them as playing like trained monkeys but that description definitely has it's charms. /images/smile.gif

You go for a checkraise on the flop.


Then one of two things happen:


1) It gets checked around. This is not a tragedy, because you now get to see the turn card. At this point, if you still have top pair, a bet into a small pot is more incorrect to call by the other people. So, they might still call, but it will be a major mistake. If the turn card is bad for you (say its an Ace), you can just check and fold. No big deal.


2) Someone bets and you checkraise. You now stand a good chance of clearing out some of the other hands who do not have proper odds to draw.


Whether you get in your checkraise and clear the field, or you bet the turn in a small pot and clear the field, you blow out more hands that have a good chance to run you down.


That's the theory anyways. I still like the bet on the flop simply because I like to bet constantly and aggressively and put pressure on other people. If it means that their calls are slightly more correct than if I went for a checkraise, I will live with it. I think its really just a question of how big a mistake your opposition is making. I'd rather they make small mistakes in big pots than big mistakes in small pots.

"I like to bet constantly and aggressively and put pressure on other people"


A man after my own heart. I love nothing better than to sit down and see the fear in their eyes because they know the bets and raises are coming.

"If the turn card is bad for you (say its an Ace), you can just check and fold. No big deal."


But isn't it a big deal if someone (with, say, A-xs) would have folded to your flop bet? You've now lost the entire pot.

You're right, there's not enough information about the preflop action to make a good judgement here. All we know for sure is that there were at least 6 players preflop (since you got 5 callers on the flop). I had assumed "large multiway pot" probably meant a preflop raise, but it could also mean 9-10 people took the flop. I agree the QJs is early position preflop muckola, although I would play it in games where a preflop raise is rare (not that I have seen a game like that for many moons around here).

You guys must play in just rotten games. I would just about never fold QJs even UTG. About the only game that I have seen (I have not played it) where I might do that is 20-40 Paradise. I have played 20-40 elsewhere on the net and of course live games at the Mirage, Muckleshoot etc. and I am in there with this hand UTG and expect it to be a money maker either directly or indirectly i.e. by somewhat widening the range of early position limping hands that I might be in there with. Btw, there are certainly times when the 'feel' is there to bring this hand into the fray with a raise.


FWIW, I don't believe that any poker authority suggests routinely folding QJs UTG...well, maybe Mike Caro. I am almost certain that S&M would play it.

I think the implicit assumption (which is subject to attack) is that the dude with Ax would have called your flop bet.


Bottom line: I don't think Mason is right when he says (or at least imples) that the dude played it wrong by simply betting out twice. But the point I take from his words is that you should consider alternatives. I like Coilean's guidelines: Bet when the agggressive types are to your left and try for the checkraise when the aggressive types are to your right. I suspect Mason's point is that the average player does not think of this rather crucial criterion. He simply says "I have got top pair...I gotta bet"...that strategy *may* be wrong under the particular game conditions (it may be right under different conditions).

Unless I'm in a very passive game, I will fold

Q-Js UTG every time. But I don't limp much UTG, and I don't play much UTG; I raise probably 95% of the time I do play.

Your explanation makes sense. But that's reading an awful lot into what Mason said. He said that playing the hand by betting the flop and then betting the turn is wrong. I understand that alternatives should always be considered, but I guess I'm saying I think the drawbacks or alternatives outweigh the positives and that the drawabacks of betting are outweighed by the positives.


Anyway, I hope Mason responds here.

I would think that QJs is more than playable from early position if you can anticipate 10-way action for one or 2 bets before the flop. You're looking for a monster hand (flush/straight), not top pair. 2 pair would also probably be good, since it's likely to be the best 2-pair (and this would get you tons 'o action with the straight draw on the board). These games have super huge swings, but the earn is good. There's a name for these games = California.


I think to win this hand, you have to go for the check raise on the flop. If you don't get it in, then check-raise the turn. It won't get checked around again. In some games, you can also check the flop (around) and bet the turn out from EP - this looks like you're trying to "buy" the pot to some folks, who will raise you with a hand like 2nd pair, or even a small 2-pair. You can get this heads-up often times (or likely three-handed), which is great. The best that you can hope for (usually) is being in the lead on the flop, having some dude catch up on the turn with 2-pair, raising you on the turn - getting it heads-up, then you resucking out on the river. Hands like this are still very profitable due to the huge pots. Often, you've just gotta knuckle up and fight in these games. Eventually you'll be in the black, especially if you play as well as you do, Coilean.

You can't fold to an A here if the pot is pretty big. Even if he shows it to you, you've gotta try to snap off 2-pair. If he's got your kicker or 2-pair already made, oh well. This is the problem with making huge pots in these games - it becomes right to call with many weak hands, as the suckers do.

I've been listening.


Just stop telling me things like Q7s on the button is a "monster" and I won't roll my eyes at you. I'm not ready to think like that yet.

LOLOL. OK, but it is defintely a call with 3 or more limpers in front of you. Even HPFAP21 agrees with me on this one!


I think we can find a middle ground between us where you are still comfortable, but better maximizing things. Your button calling standards are way too tight. We've got to find a way to get you more involved so that you can take advantage of that tight ass image of yours. /images/smile.gif

I know almost everyone disagrees with us, but I don't care: I agree with your way of thinking.


$300 should do it, though. Don't buy in for more than 25 big bets (max!) at a new limit. This way, if you don't have the desired results, you'll have given it a sufficient shot, and you'll have something new to think about (as opposed to dwelling on the nonsense you were running up against in the $3/$6 game).


Just don't overestimate your game. You ARE making a mistake here and there. You need to identify these mistakes and fix the leaks.


At least at the bigger limit, your mistakes will be more readily apparent to you.


Good luck.