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SparkyDog

07-06-2004, 10:56 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 (LAP2) calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button (LAP) raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 (LAP2) calls, MP2 caps, CO calls, Button (LAP) calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 (LAP2) calls.

Flop: (21 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, LAP2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, LAP raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, LAP caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, LAP calls, Hero calls.

River: (23 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, LAP folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 25 BB
Main Pot: 25 BB, between Hero and CO.

LAP was at 70% VPIP, and raised about 50% of the time. CO no read, LAP2 was slightly less loose aggressive than the first. Anyone see something they don't like?

imitation

07-06-2004, 11:03 PM

CO shows KJo?

adanthar

07-06-2004, 11:04 PM

You need a better hand than KTo to do this out of position, maniacs or not. For a play like this, you either want to be on the button or want a high suited Broadway that's going to stand up to two people. You've got a king weak kicker, which just isn't enough.

The flop is probably good, but once the flush hits on the turn when the non-maniac CO called 2 cold, check/call down (or fold for 2).

tech

07-07-2004, 12:15 AM

Fold preflop. I would wait for a better hand to isolate him. Also, there are already other people in this hand, so you can't isolate him anyway. Finally, you are out of position here.

SparkyDog

07-07-2004, 12:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You need a better hand than KTo to do this out of position, maniacs or not. For a play like this, you either want to be on the button or want a high suited Broadway that's going to stand up to two people. You've got a king weak kicker, which just isn't enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is an ace a requirement in these games for isolation plays? I think I played too loose in tonight's session (down 20BB, not entirely due to bad play however), and I've been thinking about limiting isolation plays to hands like AJs, AQo, JJ-AA. Would KQs be a good hand, or do I need an ace for showdown value? Are lower pocket pairs okay for this type of play?

In short, I don't really know a whole lot about the pre-flop adjustments when I'm playing in a LAG... obviously implied odds hands are next to worthless, and you tighten up considerably PF, but how far does one take it?

[ QUOTE ]
The flop is probably good, but once the flush hits on the turn when the non-maniac CO called 2 cold, check/call down (or fold for 2).

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis.

adanthar

07-07-2004, 12:22 AM

He's a maniac, not a LAG. Big difference, but you still can't isolate him *out of position* with something like KTo.

If you're on the CO or button, you should be 3 betting a whole range of hands as long as he's first in (until the table catches on and starts cold calling 3.) Something like KTo or KJo is fine, but you have to make sure you're going to be heads up to do this.

SparkyDog

07-07-2004, 12:24 AM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (20 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP3 calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (18 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls $1 (All-In), SB calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (28 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 30 BB
Main Pot: 22 BB, between UTG+1, Hero and MP3. > Pot won by MP3 (22 BB).
Pot 2: 8 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (8 BB).

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 shows Tc 5d (two pair, jacks and tens).
Hero shows Js Qc (three of a kind, jacks).
MP3 shows Jh Ad (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: MP3 wins 22 BB. Hero wins 8 BB. 

UTG+1 is the same LAP from above. I actually broke even on this hand, due to the side pot. Any special considerations on how the all-in player affects my play?

SparkyDog

07-07-2004, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He's a maniac, not a LAG. Big difference, but you still can't isolate him *out of position* with something like KTo.

If you're on the CO or button, you should be 3 betting a whole range of hands as long as he's first in (until the table catches on and starts cold calling 3.) Something like KTo or KJo is fine, but you have to make sure you're going to be heads up to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point. I was tilting a bit when this hand came up, and was hoping (irrationally) that most others would lay down to two cold.

Another thing, I've been reading Psych. of Poker and have been trying to benchmark players, however, what do you consider "maniac" as opposed to merely being overly loose and aggressive?

tech

07-07-2004, 12:33 AM

The setting is better here, because you have a chance to isolate him with position. But QJ is not a particularly good hand to isolate with, at least IMO.

adanthar

07-07-2004, 11:03 AM

PT stat wise, something like a VP$IP of 30-40/raising 10-15% would indicate a LAG. Raising 50% isn't in the same league.

And no, QJ isn't a good hand, either. You can isolate with it IF you know no one will call 3 cold. If 5 people call, your hand is worthless. Moreover, what you have preflop is Q high. I prefer kings or aces to do this with.