Picking on Vogl tonight

[LondonBroil]

I found it funny how the announcers were making fun of Vogl's bright orange fleece sweatshirt on tonight's episode. I think they also made a comment about his paper route (him being only 24). I guess they're not aware of how many young people are learning the game very well now over the internet.

[Oblivious]

It sounds like jelousy to me. I guess thats why Normand Chad is sitting on the sidelines. As bad as Vogl think he is, and as little experience as he has, I know he could wipe the floor with Norm... just listen to some of the comments he makes sometimes. He says calling an early raise with QJ at a full table is a good move, then says calling a raise from a steal position with KQ at a 3 handed table is a bad move. What a moron.

[jasonHoldEm]

Up until this point I have thought the ESPN coverage was very good (in previous years), but I thought these comments were really low class and brought the entire telecast down with it. I actually sent an email to ESPN stating how I felt and suggesting the commentator(s?) make an apology for their remarks. (Feel free to do the same at http://espn.go.com/sitetools/s/contact/espntv.html or askespntv@espn.twdc.com )

Anyone that makes the final table (regardless of age, sex, race, etc, etc) is a damn good player and deserves respect not ridicule. Lets hope they get their act together, thoughtless comments like these are what prevent poker from becoming a fully recognized "sport".

J

[AaronO]

Man, Jason, right on!! I feel the exact same way. Last year was decent coverage, but last night was awful. I kept waiting for VVP to make a cameo and talk about the monster "wired pair of 4's" and call someone Suzie Homemaker.

They had a completely lame explanation of Stud, and never even said what the limits were. Hopefully coverage of the main event is better. Thanks for that link, Jason, I will definitely send in comments.

[mak_662]

As far as the commentators go, I sort of agree that they seemed to pick on Vogl (age, dress, everything else not important etc.). However, I think he deserved to have his play picked apart. I don't think he made but 2 good moves the entire show (granted, there could have been some major editing done and we, the audience, could have been shown just his bad moves). But I honesty was not impressed with Vogl. He seemed to make some horrible calls and seemed to disregard pot odds. His bully tactics were hardly well planned and he could not seem to lay the tough hand down. All this being said, he did win the tourney. So I guess in the end, it really doesn't matter...I just was really happy that they were showing such horrible play. All I kept thinking was, man, I hope the fish at home try and play just like him.

[bingledork]

First off, that jumpsuit WAS ugly. Vogl knew he would be on TV, and he chose to wear it. How could Norm not mention it?

Second, Vogl did make some bad calls in the hands they televised. I was not impressed.

Finally, I think the paper route dig was uncalled for.

[Chazbot2000]

My favorite was Vogl when he won:

"I'd really rather not hold the money up. It's rather garish. I'm British, we're understated."

He was the first player to make me wonder if one giant streak of luck really could carry you through an entire tournament.

[benfranklin]

The comments showed a little more real humor and intelligence than the Top Ten Weekly Cliches from WPT, and I thought that a few of the remarks about age were meant to also be self-deprecating references to being older and sitting on the rail. But we all read our own viewpoint into these situations. Certainly nothing to get your shorts in a twist, as I belive the Brits say.

[B Dids]

That jumpsuit was fly. Don't be hatin'

I thought it was a bit that was trying to be funny. I don't find it horribly offensive. However if for the whole three months we're subjected to Chad bitching about young people, it'll get old quick.

[J.R.]

He was the first player to make me wonder if one giant streak of luck really could carry you through an entire tournament.

If so, that giant streak of lusk lasted more than just one tournament. He also had these finishes:

Event #13, $5,000 No-Limit Hold 'Em, 27th, $7,160
Event #23, $1,500 No-Limit Hold 'Em, 12th, $12,660

[Ilovephysics]

The whole time I was watching I told myself that the only reason they are making fun of him was because he won the whole thing... I guess it is a small price to pay for $400k. I suppose the humor was not any worse than Dave Foley on CP (and trust me, he's had some real winners... especially in the recent championship episode).

But yet if you lose a million playing craps in one day, it barely even gets a mention on ESPN...

[jasonHoldEm]

Vogl's ability and fashion sense isn't the issue, it's the lack of professionalism on the part of the commentators (and by association ESPN and EOE as well because they allowed the comments into the final cut).

If Vogl was old it would be age discrimination, if he was black it would be racism, if he was gay it would be bigotry, etc, etc...because he is young and white it's ok? Come on.

J

[Beavis68]

No, it was because he was an arrogant little prick (Vogl).

Chad made fun of umberto brenes last year too - he has a fashion fixation.

[B Dids]

Umm... how was he arrogant?

He admitted he wasn't good, he said he was understated. The only thing he did that annoyed me was call poker boring, but I can't get mad at his opinion.

And Umberto was asking to be made fun of last year.

[SnakeRat]

Vogl repeatedly demanded his opposition to call or fold, it was amazingly obnoxious.

Something like "quit fooling around, call call call call call." or "we all know your going to fold quit wasting time".

Seemed like he was a sulky kid who caught cards to me.

[unfrgvn]

Put me in the he's an arrogant prick camp.

[ QUOTE ]
Umm... how was he arrogant?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole I'm not very good thing sounded like false modesty. The whole I don't like poker and I suck but look I can still beat you thing stricks me as arrogant. The trash talking at the table is arrogant. If he really doesn't think he is very good then why he is at the WSOP?
Being too good to pick up the money and play along with the camera's is arrogant.


[ QUOTE ]
And Umberto was asking to be made fun of last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

No more than Vogl. And if it needs to be said, yes, I'm sure he could wipe the floor with me. I just came away from watching the show last night thinking I have a new least favorite poker player. I was amazed to see all the dissing of Norman Chad and support of this guy. You have to admit Chad's line of "I've played that particular brand of strip poker myself" was pretty funny.

My .02.

[Gambler101]

Norman Chad's comments concerning his past marriages are tediously recycled.

[daveymck]

We havent seent the show in the UK as yet, cant comment on the jumpsuit.

However having played with him last night in a B&M in London the comments on arrogance do not seem to ring true. He was at my table and there was certainly no sign of arrogance, self importance. He busted out and after he got up one of the regulars mentioned he had won and got the bracelet, a few others started congratulating him, rather than lapping it up he seemed more embarressed by the attention.

This could well be the reason he acted how he did (from what has been said) put a young man in a stressful, unsual situation throw a load of cameras and microphones in his face and have him playing for hundreds of thousands of $'s and it could be you get an out of character reaction from him.

[West]

I noticed this too and thought that it quite possibly was the reason that Chad was picking on him...

[West]

No, the talking to other players that I thought I saw was no reaction to the environment, it seemed to me to be a combination of arrogance and purely trying to intimidate the other players. I could be reading to much in to it, but I got the impression after a while that David Chiu didn't much appreciate his style either, and it was nice seeing him smoke Vogl for some big chips during the middle of the final table.

[J_V]

What are you guys watching? Its clear he's a good player. I could watch 3 minutes and see that.

[Ki11er]

I disagree with a lot of what has been written, and a lot of different opinions have been stated so I will do my best to deal with them all.

I believe the biggest concern that I had with Norman Chad was not his choice of victim but the fact that ESPN even allowed such antics. It seemed foolish to me that they would televise an event, a sports channel no less, and treat it as a joke with continous banter and mockery which was implied with the non-stop joking.

Secondly those who feel Vogl was putting on a facade I believe are inaccurately analyzing Vogl because almost everything he said was self-deprecating and the hunch or read that he was being fake seemed properly displaced with the person relating their actual real life encounter. Also his antics were obviously a ploy to try and dissuade an action, and if it works then good for him.

Finally he won the tournament, not sure how anyone can say he's a bad player. It's easy when you see the other players cards to make a correct read but he came into some tough situations, made it out and won. I think the real dupe and the player we should pick on is Rice, I think that was the most horrific heads up ever I made a decent sized bet with a friend that he would lose after seeing his all in with A10. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Daliman]

any chance you're referring to a certain player whose name
bears a striking resemblance to a certain wrigley field characteristic?

And i heard 1.5 million. Did ESPN really make some mention of this?

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
"I'd really rather not hold the money up. It's rather garish. I'm British, we're understated."


[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably say the same, thats just the way a lot of us are, not all but a lot.

[ QUOTE ]
He was the first player to make me wonder if one giant streak of luck really could carry you through an entire tournament

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it can.

Regards ML

[unfrgvn]

[ QUOTE ]
any chance you're referring to a certain player whose name



[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's talking about Ted Forrest. They mentioned this during the 7 card stud broadcast.

[West]

I like Norman Chad, but I do think he went too far with the paper route comment and so forth. By being as disrespectful of Vogl as he was, he was in a way cheapening the event as a whole, unintentionally. I do suspect that Chad probably got a similar impression of Vogl as some of the the rest of us, and just flat out didn't like him.

In general, I think Norman Chad is pretty funny when he's not recycling lines, but I do wish he would sharpen up on his poker analysis. I really thought ESPN might start giving better information regarding the blinds and average stack sizes this time around, but it looks like the size of the pot is the only new info we're really going to get. I think Lon McE is perfect. I'll still take them over the WPT announcers.

[ QUOTE ]
Also his antics were obviously a ploy to try and dissuade an action, and if it works then good for him.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't agree with this. I think it's an attitude that has infected our society for the worse (winning is all that matters). I think Vogl was crossing a fine line that I guess everyone is going to define differently, but for me, he was being a jackass.

[Syntax]

I seriously cant believe that people are actually suggesting a letter writing campaign to ESPN about making fun of players. I've watched the event on Tivo twice and the comments where no where near as bad or insulting as some people are making it out to be.

Vogls attitude stunk. And he was wearing an orange jumpsuit. I mean come on, if you have any sympathy for the guy its probably because you got picked on too much in high school or something.

The commentating was funny. Thats what half the people tune in for. Not to watch someone they've never heard of win a half million dollars.

Next thing you'll be complaining about is how much air time that out of control mole hair on The Masters face got. What the hell was up with that?

I only wish that one day I am fortunate enough to be picked on by Norman Chad. Quit whining and enjoy the show.

[curtains]

I think that people give way too much criticism for hands that turn out badly in heads up play. There is so much psychology wrong and so many hands edited out, that its hard to say for sure whether something is terrible or not.
Just because I have 44 and I raise and get reraised, doesnt mean Im folding it every time. Everytime you are reraised doesnt mean the guy has a higher pocket pair, or even AK when its heads up. Why couldnt vogl simply have QJ and trying to make a play at the pot....of course he has 77 and it's over.
My main point is that I think peoples criticisms of players play when it gets to heads up, is often unfounded. If you are playing some aggressive player who reraises you preflop a lot, I think 44 then becomes a pretty easy allin there. Probably this wasn't the case in this match, but we all know that ESPN isnt showing every hand.

[Deorum]

[ QUOTE ]
I made a decent sized bet with a friend that he would lose after seeing his all in with A10.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet your friend that a player would lose after you saw
him make a very good play?

[Chazbot2000]

He made some appaling calls and all-ins. If he had made one more mistake, he would have doubled one of his opponents to the point where they could have done serious damage.

Calling an all-in with bottom pair?
Mis-reading your cards to see if you've got a flush draw?
Pushing your opponent all-in when you have middle pair?
Talking smack at the table that encourages your opponent to bet into you when you have a weak hand?

I'm sure he did something right to get that chip lead in the first place and to money in other tournaments, but I didn't see anything in the footage that would tell me he was any good.

To the other poster, I thought his comment about holding the money up was genuinely funny. I was complimenting him for that. Seemed like a fun guy to get a beer with, but hardly a first class tournament poker player.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling an all-in with bottom pair?
Mis-reading your cards to see if you've got a flush draw?
Pushing your opponent all-in when you have middle pair?


[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not sure what you mean by all these, but I watched the episode twice and saw no egregious blunders. The J-10 wasn't good, but wasn't the worst either.

That second pair was a no brainer, I believe.

[pzhon]

For what it is worth, I know Vogl as a strong high-stakes backgammon player. I had no idea he played poker.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
He was the first player to make me wonder if one giant streak of luck really could carry you through an entire tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it could.

[Para13]

I fully agree here. The commentators are too interested in trying to be witty and cute and too uninterested in giving credit where credit is due to guys who have a very skilled game going.

Of course nothing makes poker a sport since it's a table game. Maybe that's the larger problem. We've got dopey sportscasters involved because the salesmen are trying to sell it like it is one.

DMJ

[ QUOTE ]
Up until this point I have thought the ESPN coverage was very good (in previous years), but I thought these comments were really low class and brought the entire telecast down with it. I actually sent an email to ESPN stating how I felt and suggesting the commentator(s?) make an apology for their remarks. (Feel free to do the same at http://espn.go.com/sitetools/s/contact/espntv.html or askespntv@espn.twdc.com )

Anyone that makes the final table (regardless of age, sex, race, etc, etc) is a damn good player and deserves respect not ridicule. Lets hope they get their act together, thoughtless comments like these are what prevent poker from becoming a fully recognized "sport".

J

[/ QUOTE ]

[Para13]

I thought he seemed like a very decent sort of guy and well mannered. I thought the BS heaped on him from the sports casters made Americans (to viewers overseas) look like boors.

DMJ

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Vogl repeatedly demanded his opposition to call or fold, it was amazingly obnoxious.

Something like "quit fooling around, call call call call call." or "we all know your going to fold quit wasting time".

Seemed like he was a sulky kid who caught cards to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

kinda like chat that would appear at a play money table. bad play, obnoxious big talk, and lucky stars. hopefully he'll learn something about himself and his play if he decides to cintinue to play after watching the rebroadcast.

[Zushyman]

Yeah, that was pretty funny. One of them made a comment, "I'm sure hes shaved at least once." lol

[AJo Go All In]

Pushing your opponent all-in when you have middle pair?

GASP. scandalous!

[rjc199]

I can't believe none of you recognized what he was wearing. Immediately when I saw his outfit and his last name I thought he was a Dutchman. The orange outfit was a Netherlands soccer warmup. I thought it was cool looking. All you old farts don't get European style. Next we'll see someone dissing Phil Ivey for wearing basketball jerseys at the table "ho, ho look at this it looks like jajamas" when he is wearing that Rocket's jersey.

[mak_662]

nah, u can't bust the man on his style...you're right, its probably some soccer warmup from one of the european leagues that us overhere in the US would have no clue who it is.... honestly, if the joan rivers of poker wanted to put their critique where it belonged they'd go after that 50+ crowd that I saw on there. I mean, if we are going to be critical, let's be critical of all. And why should fashion matter one bit??? It amazes me at the people criticizing fashion, as if it should stay just how it was in the 1940's. I mean, if your gonna be critical, then pick on his play there were infinately more flaws in that then his dress...

[Blindfolk]

I recognized the outfit because it's freaking orange. The dutch are obsessed with orange. Interesting how a British street kid like Vogl would wear a KNVB outfit.

[Muck off]

the outfit i knew was british urban style, but vogl is everything i hate about the english, there so pompus. and saying poker is boring and a game of luck, that was getting annoying.