77 MP - fold?

[imported_turvalon]

When I was playing this morning, I had this hand come up and it made me think... what should I do if my set misses?

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (7.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

I folded here because the flop was all over cards. I didn't think that I would get that many callers anyway to justify chasing the turn card.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 folds, UTG folds.

But there it is. Oh well.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

The 7 landed here, but that isn't the reason for my post. I want to know if there is a time to chase the set on the turn or river. Such as with correct pot odds, position, if your hole cards are middle pair, if the board is paired, etc. Thanks.

[sublime]

That should be one of the easier folds you ever make.

[vulturesrow]

This situation was a pretty clear fold because of not so good position and lack of odds. But I think you could almost justify going for it based on implied odds. IF someone did pair up their A or K, they are going to to the river and probably good for calling a raise as well. when the seven hits on the turn all your guys that paired their Ax crapola are going to chase you to the river. However, in this case, out of position, with all overcards on the flop and not enoug callers I probably wouldve folded too unless I had some confidence I would get callers behind me which a lot of times will be the case.

Chris

[Bill Smith]

Keep in mind that you are drawing to 2 outs (23:1 long shot) and you are getting 8.4:1 at the time you call, assuming there isn't a set out there. Furthermore, I don't like even considering implied odds when there could be a number of draws out there to spoil your bottom set should it hit. This is an easy fold.

[vulturesrow]

Like I said, this situation I would probably fold too. However, the poster was looking for other situations where he might have called and I was trying to throw some of those considerations out there. Bottom line, Ive sat at some micro tables where I have had situations like this and I have been confident of getting many many callers behind me and it has paid off in spades. Remember big pots change things. They should bring out the maniac in you, so to speak /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris

[StellarWind]

Easy fold. You are unlikely to have the best hand and you have only two outs.

The basic rule for small pocket pairs is to fold when you do not flop a set, overpair, or straight draw. Poker is complicated and there are many nuances and exceptions, but that's the basic rule. Learn it and then you can start to learn the exceptions.

You need 22.5-1 pot odds to draw to a 2-out hand. That's unusual but it sometimes happens, especially if the pot was raised preflop. If you are pretty certain that a set would win when you make it, you can call with a little less based on implied odds--the extra bets you will win after you turn your set.

Beware the situation where there is a 2-flush on the board and you don't have any of that suit. One of your two outs will make a possible flush and you could easily hit and lose anyway.

Another major exception occurs when you are heads up *before* the flop. Any made pair is usually worth playing against only one opponent (sometimes two). Do not confuse this with the situation where you used to have four opponents but one bet and the other three folded. If only one of your four opponents flopped a pair, guess which one is still playing? The more people who saw the flop, the more likely that someone flopped a decent hand.

Good luck.

[sublime]

This situation was a pretty clear fold because of not so good position and lack of odds. But I think you could almost justify going for it based on implied odds. IF someone did pair up their A or K, they are going to to the river and probably good for calling a raise as well. when the seven hits on the turn all your guys that paired their Ax crapola are going to chase you to the river. However, in this case, out of position, with all overcards on the flop and not enoug callers I probably wouldve folded too unless I had some confidence I would get callers behind me which a lot of times will be the case.

So you are saying if the hand was entiterly different you would play it differently? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A note on implied odds: With this many people remaining to act and the coordination of the board, your implied odd's are very low.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
This situation was a pretty clear fold because of not so good position and lack of odds. But I think you could almost justify going for it based on implied odds. IF someone did pair up their A or K, they are going to to the river and probably good for calling a raise as well. when the seven hits on the turn all your guys that paired their Ax crapola are going to chase you to the river. However, in this case, out of position, with all overcards on the flop and not enoug callers I probably wouldve folded too unless I had some confidence I would get callers behind me which a lot of times will be the case.

So you are saying if the hand was entiterly different you would play it differently? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

A note on implied odds: With this many people remaining to act and the coordination of the board, your implied odd's are very low.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Exactly if the situation were different Id play it different. I was just trying to give the poster some fat to chew regarding chasing the set /images/graemlins/smile.gif And you are correct, this situation you probably arent going to get good implied odds. Its that other situation I was talking about /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Chris

[sublime]

LOL. Exactly if the situation were different Id play it different. I was just trying to give the poster some fat to chew regarding chasing the set And you are correct, this situation you probably arent going to get good implied odds. Its that other situation I was talking about

The(or a) situation you are probably thinking about is when you are closing the action on a betting round. At that point you should be thinking about implied odds of spiking
a set on the turn.

[vulturesrow]

Yeah I think this is situation that really illustrates the power of position in hold'em. when I first started playing I had read this of course, but really couldnt appreciate it until I had played for a bit. Being in the CO or on the button is a huge advantage in this case.

Chris

[sublime]

Yeah I think this is situation that really illustrates the power of position in hold'em. when I first started playing I had read this of course, but really couldnt appreciate it until I had played for a bit. Being in the CO or on the button is a huge advantage in this case.

Nope, UTG is where you want to be in this case. You see why?

Although if I was the button I probably would have raised preflop /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[vulturesrow]

UTG is the place you want to be if you do hit your set on the flop. But in this situation where you are contemplating whether or not to chase your set, you want to be in the back. I think you are referring to the fact where if you do hit your set, youd love to bet out and have someone raise you so you can reraise.

Chris

[sublime]

UTG is the place you want to be if you do hit your set on the flop. But in this situation where you are contemplating whether or not to chase your set, you want to be in the back. I think you are referring to the fact where if you do hit your set, youd love to bet out and have someone raise you so you can reraise.

Nope, I am talking about *this* hand in particular and in *this* hand you want to be UTG. Do you see why?

Hint: Read the flop action

[vulturesrow]

Ok Im stumped..have some other ideas but I want to pull my foot out of my mouth so I can eat my dinner /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, I am talking about *this* hand in particular and in *this* hand you want to be UTG. Do you see why?

Hint: Read the flop action

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a stab:

UTG+1 is doing the raising. That means that not only will you be able to close the action on the flop, when you hit your set on the turn, you'll be able to check to UTG+1, let them raise, and then check-raise at the end. No one will have to call two cold, so you've got a good chance of everyone calling both bets, maximizing the pot that you will likely win.

How'd I do?

-David

[sublime]

UTG+1 is doing the raising. That means that not only will you be able to close the action on the flop, when you hit your set on the turn, you'll be able to check to UTG+1, let them raise, and then check-raise at the end. No one will have to call two cold, so you've got a good chance of everyone calling both bets, maximizing the pot that you will likely win.

yup /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is of course a bad hand to show this example, but it looked like Chris was a little confused on hero's position and how it affected his implied odds.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is doing the raising. That means that not only will you be able to close the action on the flop, when you hit your set on the turn, you'll be able to check to UTG+1, let them raise, and then check-raise at the end. No one will have to call two cold, so you've got a good chance of everyone calling both bets, maximizing the pot that you will likely win.

yup /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is of course a bad hand to show this example, but it looked like Chris was a little confused on hero's position and how it affected his implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL yes all I can do is claim temporary insanity. I was actually sitting there turning it over in my head and it just hit me all the sudden. I logged on to confidently post my answer and found someone beat me to the punch /images/graemlins/smile.gif Nicely done. I am now officially embarassed.

Chris

[TBone]

Easy fold.

Anytime at low limits you get a flop of A K x, and you have a pair lower than Kings, you're most likely behind.

Now, if the flop was T 5 2 r, then you might have a reason to continue. You could be ahead here.

As others have mentioned, position is key to playing small pairs in situations like this. Seeing what kind of action occurs on the flop is very helpful.

T

[HajiShirazu]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you see why?


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif