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Jason Strasser
07-06-2004, 03:05 PM
I've been experimenting with hands sort of like this early in tournaments. Often times you will get a shot to see the flop multi way with correct odds with very marginal hands from the blinds early on. I've seen a lot of very highly ranked SNG players making a lot of min raises PF these days with the blinds low, this is how I've been handling them. I expect I could get flamed with this play.

Early in a $200 SNG, blinds 10/15.

Im dealt 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the BB. Respected player in EP min raises, and 3 callers behind him. I call in the BB.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, original raiser bets 100, one caller behind him, I push.

Mad man? Over aggro? I posted a very similar MTT hand, so if this is redundant I apologize.

TylerD
07-06-2004, 03:29 PM
The only problem I have with this play is at the $200 level it would probably scream "I have a drawing hand". You have bunch of outs with middle pair and flush draw, unless you're up against a set of kings, which I suspect you might be....

AJo Go All In
07-06-2004, 03:56 PM
unless you caught the whole field without a king or better, you are going to get called here and will race for your whole stack. bluffs/semibluffs just don't work in the first few levels. most players have the double up or die mentality and i would be very surprised if you can get any top pair or better hand to lay down here, especially since your bet looks exactly like what you have.

in a ring game the play is fine, and fundamentally sound. if you get called you certainly have outs and you may be a favorite.

PrayingMantis
07-06-2004, 04:02 PM
You have good position on the flop to make this move, that is if 2 players folded to EP's bet (you mentioned 4, besides you, seeing the flop). I'm more worried about the caller in between you and the original raiser. Do you know him? What is he calling 100T with? K-garbage? Ax? A higher flush draw? Is he the kind of player who likes to make big calls? If there's a big chance he'll call here with KT, your move is much less EV than otherwise, but still, you'r about 50-50, and adding the folding equity you gain by your push, this is definitely +EV in most normal situations, although not a huge one.

As a side note, If it was a lower buy-in, or specifically $5-$10 SNG, I would never make such a move this early. Absolutely -$EV in the long run. But as the buy-ins climb, it becomes more and more profitable, for a few different reasons.

All IMO.

berya
07-06-2004, 04:22 PM
I must agree that it does scream a drawing hand. This combined with the fact that he lead into 4 people and he already has 1 caller makes this a big gamble on you part.

Jason Strasser
07-06-2004, 04:24 PM
This was my line of thinking. While I did not like the cold caller, there is absolutely no chance that these players call my all in with KT. I think assuming the min raise UTG is a set of kings is not good either.

The reason I make this play is because I have a ton of folding equity, especially at the higher limits. I really believe hands like KQ, and AJs will give me credit for a two-pair or better, and decline to draw. I really think the only time I am in trouble here is against a set, which will not fold, and in that spot I'll be a dog, but not a huge one.

This time they both folded. I think 70-80% of the time people will fold here. I personally think the person who cold called the 100 would raise with a set or a hand like AK, and I that is why I made this play as well.

Jason Strasser
07-06-2004, 04:30 PM
You call my all in with KQ? KJ? KT? What about AK even?

Just questions.

AJo Go All In
07-06-2004, 04:38 PM
it doesn't really matter what i would do. but the typical party clown will you call you with those hands, yes.

i would call you with AK.

AJo Go All In
07-06-2004, 04:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
there is absolutely no chance that these players call my all in with KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you are absolutely wrong. i play a good amount and i see these calls being made all the time. especially when it looks like a bluff. when do you play out of curiosity because i have put in a lot of hours in the last month and i don't think i have played with you once.

Jason Strasser
07-06-2004, 05:30 PM
I usually play late night EST. Prolly around 11pm-3am EST. I've been bubbling between the 100s and the 200s on party, with certainly a lot more 100s recently.

By the tone of your voice I'm not sure if your trying to judge the integrity of my posts... Although they are driven mostly by my multi-table performances, I'm No. 7 on Party TLB for the week and in the 70s for the month.

I'm not trying to sound defensive, but this is coming across that way.

I take back the absolute nature of my comment "They will NEVER call with KT", maybe they will not call enough with KT.

Just for arguments sake:
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4c Kd 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d 4d 505 51.01 485 48.99 0 0.00 0.510
As Ks 485 48.99 505 51.01 0 0.00 0.490

Even if they do call, I'm the favorite, albeit slight. Added on the folding equity, I still am not convinced I made a bad play.

AJo Go All In
07-06-2004, 06:11 PM
i was not trying to call into question the strength of your play. given that you are confident that a top pair type hand will rarely call you here, and combining that with the fact that i play a lot and have not seen you around (i have probably played every night for the last 2 weeks in the time frame you mentioned), led me to the conclusion that maybe you are a little out of touch with the current ridiculousness of the party 215s. in a tighter, more passive game i am sure this play would work on the order of what you are suggesting.

as for the dick swinging, for what it's worth i was in the top few last week and am in the top few for the month. but that doesn't mean too much, and on party it's largely a function of how much you play rather than how well.

as for the twodimes, i think i mentioned in my first post that you will be coinflipping for your whole stack. i understand that you are even money to a slight favorite against most top pair hands. but, you will almost never be a solid favorite, unless you get called by 6d2d. not a spot that i advocate putting yourself in. another thing that i didn't mention that i could see happening is that one guy has a higher flush draw, and another guy has a made hand, and you get called by both, in which case you're screwed. of course, this won't happen that often, but i could definitely see it happening.

AA suited
07-06-2004, 06:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You call my all in with KQ? KJ? KT? What about AK even?

Just questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

at these early rounds at $10/$20/$30 SnG's, i would have called with top pair good kicker. you're screaming draw, and since i've only spent maybe 5 min in this tourny, i'll just start a new tourny if i'm wrong or if you get your diamond.

and hopefully with me calling, the guy in the middle will fold when he sees 2 all-in's.

also, why would you put UTG with a set of K with a flop bet of 100? to get out the people that are drawing?

AA suited
07-06-2004, 06:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I usually play late night EST. Prolly around 11pm-3am EST. I've been bubbling between the 100s and the 200s on party, with certainly a lot more 100s recently.

By the tone of your voice I'm not sure if your trying to judge the integrity of my posts... Although they are driven mostly by my multi-table performances, I'm No. 7 on Party TLB for the week and in the 70s for the month.

I'm not trying to sound defensive, but this is coming across that way.

I take back the absolute nature of my comment "They will NEVER call with KT", maybe they will not call enough with KT.

Just for arguments sake:
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4c Kd 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d 4d 505 51.01 485 48.99 0 0.00 0.510
As Ks 485 48.99 505 51.01 0 0.00 0.490

Even if they do call, I'm the favorite, albeit slight. Added on the folding equity, I still am not convinced I made a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's TLB? And how far off is Aleo's low $ SnG strategy file from how you play? (and will Aleo's strategy file work in your high $ tournys?)

Ian J
07-06-2004, 06:34 PM
Why'd you check the flop?

It seems to me that if you bet 1/2 the pot and get raised by AK, a re-raise by you is much more likely to induce a fold than a check-raise all-in obvious draw overbet. Even though you're a favorite over AK (who will call), do you really wanna be in that spot?

Beavis68
07-06-2004, 06:35 PM
I love these kind of moves, and every one will think you are a complete madman if it works.

Jason Strasser
07-06-2004, 08:44 PM
I checked the flop because I'd hate to bet, get called, and miss.

This is the type of hand that does much better getting all in on the flop IMO. I checked with the intention of raising.

pzhon
07-06-2004, 10:45 PM
I like this play.

Many hands will fold that have the odds to call against you if they know what you have, and you have outs against everyone.

If they know what you have, hands like 88 or A4 or J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif should call. Will they? I don't think so. They will worry that they are drawing close to dead. The only plausible hands that are big favorites are sets, but those are not very likely.

Prickly Pete
07-08-2004, 12:40 AM
I'm not sure why everyone thinks your move screams draw and not possibly 34 (very vulnerable 2 pair, that figures to be best hand). That's certainly a hand I'd expect to see turned over often here with your move.

AJo Go All In
07-08-2004, 02:09 AM
for starters, because there are a lot more draws than there are 34s.

poboys
07-08-2004, 02:58 PM
This is a very interresting play. Upon the surface, it does sound near maniacal. However, that early on (esp at that buy-in) I would guess most would fold without two pair, a set, or (possibly) a nut-flush draw.

If you get called and win, your table rep could set you up nicely for the remainder of the tourny.

Just for the record, if he's holding the Ad:

pokenum -h 4d 7d - ad ks -- 4c kd 3d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4c Kd 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d 4d 448 45.25 542 54.75 0 0.00 0.453
Ks Ad 542 54.75 448 45.25 0 0.00 0.547

Prickly Pete
07-09-2004, 01:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
for starters, because there are a lot more draws than there are 34s.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? 25? 56? 2 other diamonds? Many of those hands are folding preflop (granted often so will 34), and most wouldn't play the draw that aggressively. Bottom 2 pair is a natural to play that way. Strassa's hand (pair and flush draw) makes sense to me too.

Just because there are more possible draws than 2 pairs, doesn't mean that it's a given that's what he's got.

AJo Go All In
07-09-2004, 09:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What? 25? 56? 2 other diamonds?

[/ QUOTE ]

um, are these question marks supposed to provide an incredulous tone here? well, i'll bite. yes. 25. 56. 2 other diamonds.

[ QUOTE ]
Many of those hands are folding preflop (granted often so will 34),

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you refuted your own point here, saved me some time.

[ QUOTE ]
and most wouldn't play the draw that aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, they would.

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom 2 pair is a natural to play that way. Strassa's hand (pair and flush draw) makes sense to me too.


[/ QUOTE ]

sure, they make sense.

[ QUOTE ]

Just because there are more possible draws than 2 pairs, doesn't mean that it's a given that's what he's got.

[/ QUOTE ]

who said it's a given? it's just much more likely.

Prickly Pete
07-09-2004, 10:31 AM
Fair enough, I guess I'm just weighing more heavily hands I'd consider moving with there. And I wasn't properly considering what others might do. I'll step of my pedestal now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif