ESPN advice for Poker Players

[mmanne]

In the most recent Jackpot Jay column (about a guy attempting to be a pro and write about it), this is the advice given:
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if you are a true beginner, I'd recommend "How to Play Poker Like the Pros," by Phil Hellmuth. It's accessible enough for a newcomer without any talking down, and the writing style is entertaining. (As soon as you become more accomplished at the game, make sure to read Doyle Brunson's "Super System." Since it was written more than 25 years ago, it's a bit outdated, theory-wise, but it's still the bible on the most important attribute any poker player could ever hope to develop -- aggressiveness.)

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Man, I can't wait to get on the tables

[nolanfan34]

Damn, I was just about to post this. I just about fell out of my chair laughing when I read this. Especially since I remember reading that most people who read Hellmuth's book seemed to feel that he DOES have a condesending tone in the book.

At this point, I'm having a hard time believing that Jackpot Jay is really up $6,500 for the year. Seems like he only writes about bad beat stories.

[Alobar]

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Damn, I was just about to post this. I just about fell out of my chair laughing when I read this. Especially since I remember reading that most people who read Hellmuth's book seemed to feel that he DOES have a condesending tone in the book.

At this point, I'm having a hard time believing that Jackpot Jay is really up $6,500 for the year. Seems like he only writes about bad beat stories.

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Wasnt he down alot before he played at foxwoods. I've never been but from what I've read here even a idiot could make money at foxwoods

[Syntax]

I havent read the article, and I am well aware of the flaws in Hellmuth' book. However anytime you give advice to a fish about reading books and how much it will improve their game, even Hellmuth's book, that's not something the better and studious players should be excited about. Despite the numerous problems with Hellmuth's strategy, it teaches players a very important concept in tight, selective and aggressive play. This will make the easy fish become tougher fish. Were not talking about taking expert players and then advising them to play a weaker system. Any clueless player that starts to "Play Poker Like the Pros" will not become an easier target. Also, if they realize that the book has helped them, they might start getting into the better books. Reading Hellmuths book is not going to turn a fish into a worse fish, but if it gets even one fish on the path to becoming a shark, that shouldn't be good news.

I know you were mostly joking, I just wanted to point that out. Now back to your regularly shceduled Hellmuth bashing.

[bwana devil]

Phil’s book was the second poker book I read. My game was already bad and got so much worse will reading it. I was just starting to play poker and was already a losing player but once I read the book I was losing money at an astounding rate. I learned on my own that the book stunk and tried to erase the “lessons” I had read. Fortunately I found the 2+2 boards next and got my required reading out of the way. I thought about posting in the books section that I wanted to trade the book but would feel guilty trading that for anything of substance.

bwana

[PITTM]

i think his point was more that, just reading hellmuths book will not do nearly enough for preparation for a new player, unless his goal is to lose money.

rj

[mmanne]

I don't know I really think the advice for Limit Poker is horrible in Phil's book. I find that it's wrong and the logic behind it is very wrong as well. Plus, a lot of the time it doesn't distinguish limit from no-limit clearly. I like people thinking that they know what they are doing and sitting at a higher limit table than they should be, just because they read a "great" instructional book.

I understand your point that any knowledge will help, but really, I think you underestimate the ego boost from a little knowledge and what that does to a poker player's game.

Plus, Jackpot Jay has really impressed me as a bad writer, and a bad poker player, so this kind of confirmed it to me.

matt

[Syntax]

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I was just starting to play poker and was already a losing player but once I read the book I was losing money at an astounding rate.

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No way did you only play Phil's top ten hands and started to lose money at an even faster rate. I don't believe it for one second.

[Alobar]

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I was just starting to play poker and was already a losing player but once I read the book I was losing money at an astounding rate.

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No way did you only play Phil's top ten hands and started to lose money at an even faster rate. I don't believe it for one second.

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If you only play his top 10 hands, you arnt in enough hands to stay ahead of the blinds. Then if you are capping 77 everytime you get it, you prolyl arnt even breaking even on the 10 hands you play

[bwana devil]

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No way did you only play Phil's top ten hands and started to lose money at an even faster rate. I don't believe it for one second.

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way. one line that got me in trouble from the book was something like: "And what happens when you're first to act and the flop misses you? You bet it like it did hit you." micro limits is not the place to bluff i found out the hard way.

[Syntax]

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If you only play his top 10 hands, you arnt in enough hands to stay ahead of the blinds. Then if you are capping 77 everytime you get it, you prolyl arnt even breaking even on the 10 hands you play


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I dont think I agree with that. You are going to be playing your blinds as well. I know there is much better advice out there then Phil's but I don't believe if followed correctly it will make someone a loser.

Heres something that may deserve its own thread. I read on the poker tracker forum where some people filtered out only Phil's top hands and compared that to thier overall results. In each case if they had ONLY been playing Phils top hands, they would have been up a thousand or two more!

Of course that simple analysis will be somewhat incorrect because they probably played 77 less aggressively and the blinds play a role and so on. It was only like three people discussing it in the thread. I would love to see what the results of a number of people here doing the same analysis would be.

Also, you are NOT capping 77 everytime. At least it was clear to me, that if a player that you have decided was a "mouse or elephant" or something like that enters the the pot and you don't make a set, then you should be folding and not putting in additional raises.

[JGalt]

I'm not sticking up for or bashing Hellmuth, but to say a book sucks without taking all variables into consideration is just plain wrong. TO take advice from any book and apply to all kinds of tables is just going to get you in trouble, especially trying to apply them to a micro-limit game. Theories, strategies, bluffing and the sorts are not going to work on a table when you have 4+ players chasing a two outer, or flush, inside straight etc. against your A's with king kicker. I don't care what book you read Sklansky, Malmuth, Hellmuth, whoever you cannot apply those strategies to games like micro-limits.

[cardcounter0]

"if you are a true beginner, I'd recommend "How to Play Poker Like the Pros," by Phil Hellmuth."

HOOOOORAYYYYY!!!!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Kevmath]

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At this point, I'm having a hard time believing that Jackpot Jay is really up $6,500 for the year. Seems like he only writes about bad beat stories.

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He parlayed a $150 satellite into a 10K WPT seat.

Kevin...

[Alobar]

I'm all for rooting for him. The more people that see you can make money as a poker player the more people are going to try it.

[bwana devil]

But the book is aimed at people who are just starting to learn and play holdem so of course the target audience will be playing microlimits.

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Theories, strategies, bluffing and the sorts are not going to work on a table when you have 4+ players chasing a two outer, or flush, inside straight etc.

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That sounds like Sklansky and Malmuth talk. The book really doesn’t get this deep or if it did there were no impressions left by it on me or many other readers. It has been a while since I read the book so I don’t recall all the specifics. What I do know is that reading it hurt my game badly.

If you found it to be a helpful book, then that is a benefit for you. We have very different learning styles.

[MicroBob]

i am all for someone pushing Hellmuth's book.
i have seen it recommended in chat on party tables a couple times and i'm always quick to add that i thought it was a terrific read and it really made me a stronger player.


that being said...some of what syntax says is true for my case.
i got it in May of 2002 i think...before i had found 2+2...and shortly after i had started playing and still had difficulty remembering whether a flush beat a full-house or vice-versa.
i remember one of the first threads i saw on 2+2 (after finding this place) where everyone was bashing the book and i was kind of surprised because it didn't seem that bad to me. shortly thereafter i had HEFAP and TOP and have since been a winning player.

i don't really think PPLTP really got me on the right track towards actually studying the game...i think finding 2+2 did.
but Phil's book is indeed next to a bunch of other 'better' books (including 2+2) in the book-store....so those who take this writer up on his advice are going to see the others when they go to purchase it.

but....at least he is recommending Phil's book and not Sklansky.
it would have been MUCH better if he said 'books will only screw up your game....you really have to get a feel for how the cards run and that's the only way you can win. i don't know ANYONE who actually made themselves into a winning player by reading a book...you have to read your opponents and FEEL what's happening at the tables'

short of advice like that....i'm more than happy with him recommending phil's book to everyone.

[34TheTruth34]

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Wasnt he down alot before he played at foxwoods. I've never been but from what I've read here even a idiot could make money at foxwoods

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As one of those idiots who does make money at Foxwoods, I take offense to that. (I think...)

[nolanfan34]

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However anytime you give advice to a fish about reading books and how much it will improve their game, even Hellmuth's book, that's not something the better and studious players should be excited about.

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At first glance, I realized this is a good point. Like MicroBob, here was my book progression, in order of purchase/library checkout:

1. Ken Warren Texas Hold Em (was like $9.95, cheapest book I could find. Should have told me something).
2. Supersystem
3. TJ/McEvoy NL/PL HE
4. TOP
5. HEPFAP
6. Small Stakes Hold Em by Noted Poker Authority Ed Miller (coming soon)

But when I think about it further, I realize that I would have made this progression regardless, because I had the drive to keep learning and keep getting better. I compare this to some of my friends, who despite the fact we have played multiple tournaments, still haven't bothered trying to learn the game at all. The drive just isn't there.

I think in the end, Jay's comment may drive some people to read books faster than they may have in the first place, but I think he's mostly going to be driving people that probably would have discovered what poker books are out there eventually. A lot of the fish that we count on are NOT going to bother with this, because as someone else mentioned, they view it as gambOOOOOOOOOllllling.