Do you ever wish you were innocent?? [Archive]

OrangeHeat

07-06-2004, 12:49 PM

I went home for the holiday and went to the small local casino with my parents and watched them have a blast playing nothing but -EV games.

They played the machines that "felt" good, played the craps table when it was "hot", and all in all they enjoyed the heck out of it.

All I could do is think that is a 5% house edge, that is a 10% edge, bet the max odds it is less -EV, etc..., etc...No fun, no excitement just math...

Do you ever wish you hadn't learned all the gambling theory or that you could forget it for say a day and go and have fun at the casino? Do you ever wish you could be the guy at the gas station blowing 10 bucks on the scratch tickets because you think your lucky? Do you ever wish you could be the guy capping it up with J7 offsuit because you feel lucky?

I wish that once in awhile...It is something I can not genuinely experience for the rest of my life. Luck does not exist to me anymore just bell curves, averages, std deviation, etc...

It was a little depressing watching them enjoy there entertainment while my brain wouldn't shut off.

Don't get me wrong I am grateful for the $$ I earn from knowing what +EV is..just once in awhile seems it would be fun.

How about you - do you ever miss that "gambling innocence"?

Orange

toots

07-06-2004, 01:09 PM

Well, as previously noted, I miss my "poker innocence."

I enjoyed the game a heck of a lot more when I wasn't trying to implement a "winning game" strategy, and when I lost, I didn't kick myself for making mistakes, since the loss exactly matched my expectations.

benfranklin

07-06-2004, 01:43 PM

Sounds like a line from an old song (Bob Seger?):

Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.

Toro

07-06-2004, 01:58 PM

The short answer is no. When I go into a casino now and am walking to the card room, I have absolutley no desire to play any of the table games anymore. And I've felt like this for a few years now.

During a recent trip to LV we mixed a little business in and had a business meeting at this high rollers suite. We then went down and had a nice dinner and he was chomping at the bit to play some craps.

Because it would have been awkward not to play, I played. But I was real uncomfortable and didn't enjoy it at all. And craps used to be my favorite table game. And I knew exactly why I was uncomfortable. I had no control of my money. It was as they say "a crap shoot".

So maybe after this long ramble after the short "no" answer I guess I really do miss the innocence of being able to enjoy a gambling game.

daryn

07-06-2004, 02:25 PM

my answer: yes.

i feel this way about a lot of things in life. (you guys are gonna love this one) sometimes i wish i wasn't as intelligent as i am. ignorance can be bliss sometimes. sometimes i start thinking about the world, the universe, philosophising to myself, and i think myself into deep depression about how existence is meaningless. then i just picture some group of idiots out there drinking beers at a bar and living it up. they are just pleased to be alive, and i think that's what it's all about.

anyways yeah sometimes i wish i didn't know what i know, and sometimes i'm very glad that i know what i know.

cardcounter0

07-06-2004, 02:25 PM

NO! I enjoy the money I win on much better things than the "fun" of throwing it away at some -EV game in the hope that lightning will strike me and I get lucky.

I mean how simple does one have to be to think that losing money gambling is "fun". Couldn't you have more "fun" spending that money on a hooker or booze or some mind altering drug?

I like the fine furniture, or nice carpeting, or cool vacations, etc. that my gambling wins have provided me. Even just the peace of mind of paying some utility bills with gambling winnings instead of "job-earned" money provides me enjoyment.

blackaces13

07-06-2004, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and i think myself into deep depression about how existence is meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man this is so true. The more you analyze things from a "big picture" perspective the less meaning everything has. Once things are stripped of the meaning that we assign them it becomes nearly impossible to truly "care" about anything. As far as the universe is concerned if the entire earth spontaneously combusted in a ball of flame tomorrow it would change absolutely nothing. Whether you get your dream job, marry some great woman, become a war hero or become a complete waste and die alone means absolutley nothing to anyone but yourself; and once you're dead then it doesn't even matter to you anymore. Your life may affect other people but their collective happiness or unhapiness as a reslut of your existence means nothing either. They'll be gone, a time will come when no living being even remembers that any of us ever existed, the sun will burn out, none of it means a thing.

So, the answer then is to give things meaning. Get passionate about things and fully enjoy them. Meet people who make you happy and do things that make you happy and do them well. In the end the only thing that matters in your life is your average level of happiness achieved in the time you were alive. The catch 22 part of it is that if you get to realizing what I've just said in this paragraph because you first realized what I said in the first paragraph, its extremely tough to give things meaning and be truly passionate about them because you realize that "meaning" is essentially just an illusion and caring about anything is by definition illogical.

Sometimes I think I'd be better off if I believed in God, but I think about things too much and try to be rational so I don't. God is really the only way around the problem I've outlined. People who believe in God always have a handy way to assign meaning to anything, and because of that they're lucky, though in my opinion uninformed or "ignorant" (uh oh /images/graemlins/shocked.gif). I guess in a way that is a good parallel to the original posters point. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

astroglide

07-06-2004, 03:20 PM

don't they serve drinks there?

Warik

07-06-2004, 03:25 PM

Good post. I agree with everything that you said.

OrangeHeat

07-06-2004, 03:54 PM

The last time I drank and played a -EV game I blew $7000 in 30 minutes on a crap table at the Bellagio. I had been doing a shot of cuervo every time the waitress came around to the 30/60 game all night. 7:00... am flight leaving at noon I took all the money I had and slapped it on the table.

300 on the line 1500 odds...it didn't take long. Heh - at least I got the room comped.

Orange

OrangeHeat

07-06-2004, 03:57 PM

Some of the happiest people I know live in trailers, are poor, live simple, never leave there county/area, drink/smoke/party, and enjoy the hell out of what they have.

Orange

Warik

07-06-2004, 04:15 PM

Same here... I see people who are happy all the time who are worse off (at least by my own standards) than I am. Yet for the life of me I can't smile unless something extraordinarily good happens. blah

Ulysses

07-06-2004, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever wish you hadn't learned all the gambling theory or that you could forget it for say a day and go and have fun at the casino?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't find knowing about gambling theory and having fun at the casino playing -EV games to be mutually exclusive at all. I play blackjack and craps in Vegas. If a slot machine has martians on it, I might play that as well. Fun, excitement, getting lucky, etc. It's all part of EV, just not $$$ EV. In a number of ways, I see playing blackjack as not very much different than paying for a meal at a nice restaurant.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever wish you could be the guy at the gas station blowing 10 bucks on the scratch tickets because you think your lucky?

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't see why you can't spend 10 bucks on scratchers 'cause it would be really fun to win the $100,000 top prize.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever wish you could be the guy capping it up with J7 offsuit because you feel lucky?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not usually, because the maximum amount I kind win will probably not make up in excitement for the value of the money I'm throwing away. But at certain tables, why not?

Ulysses

07-06-2004, 04:40 PM

OK. I've done plenty of stuff like this before. The question is simply, did you get $7000 of value out of this? Well, probably not. It's 7am. There probably aren't a ton of hot chicks at the craps table. It's at the end of the trip, and it sucks to go home on a losing note. All in all, you're probably not getting a great return on your craps investement here. However, if you're down $50k at this point, you may feel no difference between being down $50k and $57k, whereas a timely hot streak at craps could easily turn you into a winner. Gambling it up w/ $7k in that spot could be well worth it.

In general, though, I don't ever do this anymore - I've found little value from last ditch gambling sessions. Instead, I'll usually do this on Friday/Saturday night at a boisterous table w/ friends, cute girls, and a lot of drinks. Then, in addition to the value from possibly hitting a great streak, there's all sorts of "fun" value as well.

bdk3clash

07-06-2004, 04:42 PM

Good post. I need a drink. Or several.

2283

07-06-2004, 06:59 PM

im as smart as you guys and i believe in ultimate meaning because i believe in God. sucks to be you. maybe someday...

spamuell

07-06-2004, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People who believe in God always have a handy way to assign meaning to anything, and because of that they're lucky, though in my opinion uninformed or "ignorant" (uh oh ). I guess in a way that is a good parallel to the original posters point. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to hijack the thread here but I think you're ignorant. Personally, I'm an agnostic/atheist/occasional monotheist, depending on my mood, but whatever one believes, this has nothing to do with their intelligence or their knowledge. Better educated and more intelligent people than you or me have been atheists and have been religious, I don't think you're at all right to belittle the beliefs of others, especially when you have just as much proof for your belief as they do for theirs.

nolanfan34

07-06-2004, 08:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my answer: yes.

i feel this way about a lot of things in life. (you guys are gonna love this one) sometimes i wish i wasn't as intelligent as i am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, like you said, just keep drinking those beers, and you'll take care of this soon enough. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Beer, and other forms of alcohol, really are miracle drinks. They have a magical way of taking something that's -EV, and casting it in a +EV light after a while, it's amazing.

blackaces13

07-06-2004, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm an agnostic/atheist/occasional monotheist, depending on my mood, but whatever one believes, this has nothing to do with their intelligence or their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, the word ignorant has nothing to do with intelligence and I didn't mean to imply that people who believe in God are stupid. Because I believe it to be "the truth" that God does not exist I am saying that IMO people who fail to recognize this are "ignorant" because they are not aware of this truth. However, since I can't prove that I'm right about God's existence or lack thereof, the word ignorant was probably a poor choice of words. I said it because it was mentioned in the original post with regard to EV and I wanted to tie that in. I take it back.

PS. If a guy was 100% convinced that God did exist, then his calling me ignorant on the subject would be fair from his perspective. In his opinion the existence of God is a fact and I am failing to realize this "fact". His calling me stupid however would not be fair.

Al Schoonmaker

07-06-2004, 09:06 PM

Dan Negreanu is one of the world's greatest players, and he has written about his similar feelings. But he yields to them to get them out of his system.
He "blows off steam" by blowing ten or twenty rebuys in tiny buy in events. He might go all in ten hands in a row. He loses a few dollars, but the amount he loses is less than he bets every round in his regular games. This foolishness lets him play better when it counts. You can read about it at cardplayer.com.
David Sklansky is clearly identified with +EV, and he wrote a great book called, "Getting the best of it." I quote From page 1.
"I see nothing wrong with a couple coming to Las Vegas to enjoy the shows and to try their luck at the tables. As long as they can afford the loss, and they are having a good time, there is nothing wrong with some occasional frivolous gambling with the percentages against them."
If he can accept that it's OK to gamble for fun, why can't you? Are you "more Catholic than the Pope?"
I must add that he put serious conditions on the fun. Don't do it with money you can't afford to lose. Don't do it too often.
In other words, if you want to have a little fun, it's OK.
Poker is a GAME, and the primary purpose of all games is pleasure. Don't take it so seriously that it becomes a boring "job." If you get bored, you will not play well.
Regards,
Al

Homer

07-06-2004, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
im as smart as you guys and i believe in ultimate meaning because i believe in God. sucks to be you. maybe someday...

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is why I think being religious means nothing. You say you "believe in god", yet tell someone that it "sucks to be you" in practically the same breath.

Homer

07-06-2004, 10:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my answer: yes.

i feel this way about a lot of things in life. (you guys are gonna love this one) sometimes i wish i wasn't as intelligent as i am. ignorance can be bliss sometimes. sometimes i start thinking about the world, the universe, philosophising to myself, and i think myself into deep depression about how existence is meaningless. then i just picture some group of idiots out there drinking beers at a bar and living it up. they are just pleased to be alive, and i think that's what it's all about.

anyways yeah sometimes i wish i didn't know what i know, and sometimes i'm very glad that i know what i know.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty scary how close this comes to describing how I feel a lot of the time. Why do you think I chose the username 'Homer'?

astroglide

07-06-2004, 11:25 PM

one of the reasons i thought i smoked pot back when i was doing it was because i liked to feel dumb "for a change", similar to those idiots in the bar you reference. it was just ego.

Cry Me A River

07-06-2004, 11:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i feel this way about a lot of things in life. (you guys are gonna love this one) sometimes i wish i wasn't as intelligent as i am. ignorance can be bliss sometimes. sometimes i start thinking about the world, the universe, philosophising to myself, and i think myself into deep depression about how existence is meaningless. then i just picture some group of idiots out there drinking beers at a bar and living it up. they are just pleased to be alive, and i think that's what it's all about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, 'cuz there are no unhappy stupid people...

I don't understand why so many are envious of people who are "stupid and happy" but not people who are "smart and happy".

It's like a tight passive moaning about how much better the loose aggressive has it (but the loose aggressive has so much more fun!) and never seems to realise the tight aggressive is taking them both to the cleaners...

Ah, well, the grass is always greener!

Homer

07-07-2004, 12:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i feel this way about a lot of things in life. (you guys are gonna love this one) sometimes i wish i wasn't as intelligent as i am. ignorance can be bliss sometimes. sometimes i start thinking about the world, the universe, philosophising to myself, and i think myself into deep depression about how existence is meaningless. then i just picture some group of idiots out there drinking beers at a bar and living it up. they are just pleased to be alive, and i think that's what it's all about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, 'cuz there are no unhappy stupid people...

I don't understand why so many are envious of people who are "stupid and happy" but not people who are "smart and happy".

It's like a tight passive moaning about how much better the loose aggressive has it (but the loose aggressive has so much more fun!) and never seems to realise the tight aggressive is taking them both to the cleaners...

Ah, well, the grass is always greener!

[/ QUOTE ]

Geesh, daryn is taking a lot of crap recently. I don't think it's warranted in this case.

-- Homer

joker122

07-07-2004, 12:06 AM

Daryn, your post is a little to real for me... i sort of wish you never posted it. I think it's why I, and many people here, gamble. It serves as a conveinent diversion from thoughts such as these.

astroglide

07-07-2004, 12:27 AM

ego.

joker122

07-07-2004, 12:31 AM

What do you mean by this?

daryn

07-07-2004, 12:34 AM

yeah i am taking a lot of heat recently for some reason. these things come in waves.

anyway, i didn't mean of course that all people who go out drinking and have a great time are stupid.. i guess by stupid i meant, they could either get past the deep thoughts i have and go out and enjoy themselves, or they weren't the type of people to ever start thinking those deep thoughts in the first place.

anyways, i'm kinda glad to hear that a couple of you guys out there know what i'm talking about, even though i thought i rambled a bit about my occasional thoughts.

astroglide

07-07-2004, 12:39 AM

i mean it's a joke that you guys think that you're so tortured and intelligent. odds are unfathomably high that you just think too much of yourself and take yourself too seriously.

daryn

07-07-2004, 12:43 AM

it's not about that. it's not like i think i'm the smartest guy in the world, i just realize that i'm smart enough to be contemplating the infinity of the universe and how meaningless everything is, and there are people out there that would never think of such things.

sometimes, when i'm in "that kind of mood", i wish i was one of them.

joker122

07-07-2004, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i mean it's a joke that you guys think that you're so tortured and intelligent. odds are unfathomably high that you just think too much of yourself and take yourself too seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

The irony in this post is shocking. I've been a member of this forum for 7 months and I've read hundreds of your posts. Most of your responses reek of condescension and self-importance. Touche, astro.

SlyR

07-07-2004, 01:21 AM

No, I wish no such thing. The best line of defense I've had against friends who were concerned about my "gambling problem" is the fact that I only play poker. And I can comfortably back up that line of defense because knowledge of the odds keeps me comfortably away from the house games.

2283

07-07-2004, 01:33 AM

i thought it was clear that i meant it sucks to go through life believing that nothing really matters. don't you agree?

i also believe that being religious means nothing.

Cry Me A River

07-07-2004, 10:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]

i guess by stupid i meant, they could either get past the deep thoughts i have and go out and enjoy themselves, or they weren't the type of people to ever start thinking those deep thoughts in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I mean't that level of intelligence has about zero correlation to happiness.

If you've taken to blaming your depression on intelligence you really need to give your head a shake, or a shrink...

MEbenhoe

07-07-2004, 10:42 AM

I think the real key to it all is you just need to know how to loosen up. I'll give you an example of mine that relates directly to this. I have a group of a few friends who all play poker pretty seriously, some of us are more experienced and knowledgeable than others in this group, but relatively are all pretty solid players. The nearest card club to us is Canterbury Park (little over 2 hour drive away). We usually make a weekly trip there to play. As soon as we walk in there we're all quite serious and play our best games every time in. I don't have records on the rest of my friends but i'm over 90% sure that all of us are ahead from playing there, I myself am up a good amount and rarely leave from a session there down.

So you're asking whats the point of all this? Well this same group of friends who all take poker seriously, are winning players, and know all the math behind poker can relate things to EV, have made it a tradition that following every trip we'll go each put in a buck and buy lottery tickets. It usually happens that we stop at a gas station afterwards, someone says hey look what the jackpot is up to and we're all in. We'll then go and talk ridiculously of what we'll all do with our share of the winnings when we hit it big. Also, quite a few of my friends after a long poker session will cash out up a couple hundred bucks and then go take $10 or $20 over to the table games in the back and throw it away there.

What the point of all this was is that someone who takes poker seriously, knows all the odds, the math, EV, can still go and throw away a few bucks here and there just having fun if you have the proper attitude about it. Loosen up, have fun, take a vacation, play some really low buy in poker with friends who dont really know what they're doing and rather than concentrating on your playing just have fun, hey you'll only lose $5 doing it anyways. But you'll gain a better attitude, and you won't see throwing a few bucks away every once in awhile as such a bad thing, and you'll learn to have fun with it. Hope that helped.

Cohiba Al

07-07-2004, 10:51 AM

I agree with this.

I play poker because it is fun to play. The fun isn't always tied into the money I win or lose; that is, a winning session isn't necessary for me to have a successful day. Yet that doesn't mean I'm not there for the money, I am. But I measure my poker day by how well I played, not my take.

But as for fun, I bring that with me, win or lose. I enjoy being at the table. I enjoy talking with the regulars who know me, meeting new people. I tease the waitresses and the dealers. I make jokes, and laugh with good cheer at those made at my expense. I cheer when great play has beat me for a pot (sure a suck-out sours me a tad). I announce to the entire room when a royal hits the table (why not? It's a great and rare thing for that person and he should get the most bang for it). I talk about weather, sex, politics, sports, poker, life, philosophy, poker, anything. I bring the fun with me.

Doing something that is -EV or +EV only affects my wallet. Doing something that is FUN is, as always, entirely up to me and how I approach my activity.

mackthefork

07-07-2004, 11:06 AM

Horses are good, definitely '-EV' but very good all the same, go lose some money, and enjoy it, it's good for the soul.

Regards ML

mackthefork

07-07-2004, 11:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes i start thinking about the world, the universe, philosophising to myself, and i think myself into deep depression about how existence is meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, I love the fact that existence is meaningless.

[ QUOTE ]
then i just picture some group of idiots out there drinking beers at a bar and living it up. they are just pleased to be alive, and i think that's what it's all about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more with that.

Regards ML

mackthefork

07-07-2004, 11:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, the word ignorant has nothing to do with intelligence and I didn't mean to imply that people who believe in God are stupid. Because I believe it to be "the truth" that God does not exist I am saying that IMO people who fail to recognize this are "ignorant" because they are not aware of this truth. However, since I can't prove that I'm right about God's existence or lack thereof, the word ignorant was probably a poor choice of words. I said it because it was mentioned in the original post with regard to EV and I wanted to tie that in. I take it back.

PS. If a guy was 100% convinced that God did exist, then his calling me ignorant on the subject would be fair from his perspective. In his opinion the existence of God is a fact and I am failing to realize this "fact". His calling me stupid however would not be fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty much a recognised fact, that god (or all religion) is a tool of the state created to manipulate the masses. In early civilisations this was the only way to keep any sort of order, things have changed a bit since then though. People can believe what they want, but to say someone is wrong to deny the existence of god is not fair, they have as much right to say it as the guys who go door to door have to sell their ideas.

Regards ML

astroglide

07-07-2004, 11:42 AM

consider how offended and/or "they" would be if they were made aware of your thoughts. do you think smart poor people have these thoughts? they don't, they have bigger fish to fry. do you think non-poor motivated people have these thoughts? ditto for them.

the only people that seem to shoot up high schools, cut their arms with razors, lament about these sorts of things seem to be people who are without legitimate problems and are too lazy to meet whatever it is in their life that would make them break even in terms of realization of potential.

i think using "intelligence" as the reason is a cop-out. i think it's just a combination of being unburdened, lazy, and unable to see it because of ego. i'm not trying to be insulting or condescending or anything here, just direct. it's something very specific that i used to do and now i know i'm just being lazy. i think most people are in the same boat, but there could of course be exceptions.

and for whatever observations you have joker122 it doesn't make me any more or less correct here.

mackthefork

07-07-2004, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i thought it was clear that i meant it sucks to go through life believing that nothing really matters. don't you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes it does but thats what we've got, and I guess theres nothing to compare it against.

Regards ML

Rico Suave

07-07-2004, 12:25 PM

Homer:

[ QUOTE ]
See, this is why I think being religious means nothing. You say you "believe in god", yet tell someone that it "sucks to be you" in practically the same breath.

[/ QUOTE ]

Religious people do not have a corner on hypocrisy -- it is a problem with man in general. Religious people are no more or less hypocritical than athiests... or agnostics.... or whatever. Of course, they do make easy targets.

--Rico

ismisus

07-07-2004, 12:41 PM

I think everyone is smart. Everyone spends lifetime learning information. On this forum you are defined by your poker skill, on the jeopardy forum you are defined by your knowledge, on a fashion forum you are defined by your sense of fashion. People of each clique have total disregard for the other clique. Poker people dismiss jeopardy people as encyclopedias for useless knowledge and fashion people for just being useless. Jeopardy people dismiss poker players for being degenerate gamblers. Fashion people dismiss poker players for being geeky. Society dismisses people who are not of right education or profession. I think everyone is intelligent in their own areas.

Some people choose to think about the supposed logical conclusions of the end of the world, life. (Personally, I don’t know how people can think of a logical end if we don’t know the logical beginning…what happened before the big bang, what happened before that?). Some people choose to think about logical conclusions of wearing a hat to a party. Both are the same thing. One guy might not know that slot machines don’t get ‘hot’. However that guy does know all the NASCAR drivers, and will dismiss anyone who doesn’t as unintelligent. Everyone is intelligent in the areas they spend most of their time in… how people perceive that…it doesn’t matter.

Homer

07-07-2004, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Homer:

[ QUOTE ]
See, this is why I think being religious means nothing. You say you "believe in god", yet tell someone that it "sucks to be you" in practically the same breath.

[/ QUOTE ]

Religious people do not have a corner on hypocrisy -- it is a problem with man in general. Religious people are no more or less hypocritical than athiests... or agnostics.... or whatever. Of course, they do make easy targets.

--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was not putting down people for being religious. After all, to each his own. What I meant is that society considers "being religious" to be a positive quality, whereas I believe that it doesn't mean anything, good or bad. As you said, both religious and non-religious people can be hypocritical.

-- Homer

Al Schoonmaker

07-07-2004, 02:00 PM

Well stated.
Thank you.
Al

RydenStoompala

07-07-2004, 03:57 PM

Orange: what a cool post! I haven't seen stuff like this since I dated a philosophy major in college and she introduced me to existentialism. Thank God the sex was good. Anyway, I vote for not missing it because when I want to play craps or other exciting games, I can do so with wreckless abandon, make good bets and have a great time. Also, several drinks seems to induce enough loss of common sense to replicate childhood. "Seven a winner...pay the line!" "3 and 3 Just for me!" Bet the hard six; go super negative EV or go home.

Kurn, son of Mogh

07-07-2004, 05:10 PM

So what? You can still drink beer and play craps for fun. Just play pass line bets taking free odds and whoop it up with the rest of the tabke knowing the house edge on your play is only 6/10 of a percent.

Roy Munson

07-07-2004, 05:31 PM

Stating that everyone is smart is both a huge generalization and quite a reach.

I know that, first hand, I am far from smart. Especially when it comes to things that I spend a majority of my time on. With each day I feel dumber and dumber. It is actually quite liberating.

I also find it liberating that everything is ultimately meaningless. It takes away the pressure. Enjoy!

daryn

07-07-2004, 05:37 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
And I mean't that level of intelligence has about zero correlation to happiness.

If you've taken to blaming your depression on intelligence you really need to give your head a shake, or a shrink...

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, i think you really misunderstood my posts.

sthief09

07-07-2004, 07:34 PM

seems like the same question. there's certain things I'm glad I know.

but craps and games of chance come down to one thing: in the shortrun, anything CAN happen. if I play craps for an hour and my expectation is -$5, then so be it. luck DOES exist in the shortrun, so as long as you're not playing for thousands of hours over the span of a lifetime, you can get lucky or unlucky.

most people know that they can't beat the house. how else would a casino make money? why else would a casino comp their best players? people pay to have a good time. playing craps is a good time.

OrangeHeat

07-07-2004, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just play pass line bets taking free odds and whoop it up with the rest of the tabke knowing the house edge on your play is only 6/10 of a percent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do play the -EV games sometimes and I do have fun - however I always know that that edge is 6/10 or whatever it is.

My point is I can't see winning or losing at this game as luck - I see it as math plain and simple. I used to enjoy it MORE when I could think I was lucky or unlucky. You know freaking out becuase the shooter changed the way he wass rolling, calling off bets because the dice flew off the table, superstitious stuff - make any sense?

Orange

daryn

07-07-2004, 10:04 PM

makes perfect sense.

not only is playing craps fun, but being supersitious is fun also!

BottlesOf

07-07-2004, 10:19 PM

Why do you think I chose the username 'Homer'?

Because "The Illiad" is your favorite epic poem?

pzhon

07-08-2004, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I used to enjoy it MORE when I could think I was lucky or unlucky. You know freaking out becuase the shooter changed the way he wass rolling, calling off bets because the dice flew off the table, superstitious stuff ...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's fun to say all sorts of nonsense, but don't believe it.
It's bad luck to be superstitious.

Lawrence Ng

07-09-2004, 04:35 AM

Many people gamble for different reasons. I still play craps and baccarat (where I can peel cards). Why do I play even though I know it's -EV. The reason is that it provides me with entertainment value. I still like the action, but I am in good control and will not blow away my house and farm on the table. I usually play much smaller stakes compared to my poker games.

I love the action of craps and I love peeling the cards off baccarat. Win or lose I want to have fun and these are the two games I have fun at in the house. It's no different than me spending money on new hockey gear, or show tickets, or going on a vacation. As long as I have fun it's all that matters.

MicroBob

07-09-2004, 06:01 AM

interesting thread...i stopped reading the responses around page 3 when stumbling on this quote...

[ QUOTE ]
And I mean't that level of intelligence has about zero correlation to happiness.

If you've taken to blaming your depression on intelligence you really need to give your head a shake, or a shrink...

[/ QUOTE ]

indeed...i agree.
on these forums i've been accused of being fairly serious sometimes. but that's more because i truly enjoy analyzing various theories etc etc.

i have done my fair share of contemplation....probably on a daily basis..and i also am an atheist/agnostic/whatever.

but overall....i consider myself to be a happy person....and typically i am king of the sillies (self-appointed) when out and about....and this is BEFORE i have even started drinking (which i really don't do that much of).

i also happen to think i'm a reasonably intelligent dude (who doesn't??).

an awareness that we are all worm-food in a few decades or whatever other kind of 'life is meaningless' contemplation you want to put yourself through does not necessarily have to lead to depression.

personally, i find the knowledge to be freeing and think that a deeper understading can (and maybe should) actually lead to greater enjoyment out of life....not less.

that has been my overall experience anyway.

now back to your regularly scheduled depression.

J.A.Sucker

07-09-2004, 07:31 PM

This is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. I bet you're so smart that you just can't bear the thought of life, since you're aware of all this "bad stuff" in the world. Please!

Some of the most intelligent people I know (who are likely some of the smartest people in the world) are about as happy as it gets. They enjoy thinking about how things work, and approach every problem (great or small) with a child's passion and curiousity; that is why they're the real problem-solvers. I'm sorry you are soooo smart that you can't even go out with your buddies and enjoy life for what it is.

FWIW, I'm plenty aware of the world around me and ponder many things on a daily basis, but I'm about the happiest guy you'll ever meet. I'm really "running good" when all things are considered; I have my health, good friends, a companion that understands me, a job that stimulates me, and money is decent. Not too bad, if you ask me, and this is coming from a guy who has recently lost 2/3 of his bankroll playing poker.

Oh yeah, I enjoy playing -EV games because they are fun, as long as you keep your losses to what is reasonable for you. The last thing this world needs is more nits, and I'm afraid that there are several posters on this site who would qualify as such.

This is just my opinion, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

DeezNuts

07-10-2004, 12:15 AM

I have a lot of friends that are blissfully ignorant of the deeper issues in life. I constantly envy them for their ability to find happiness just by having a great girlfriend/wife, having career goals, friends, etc. These things(or mostly anything) have never made me happy for a sustained period(although some do keep me content on a day-to-day basis). It's the whole blissfully ignorant idiot vs. tortured genius(not calling myself a genius) debate. I realize that they aren't mutually exclusive, but for certain personalities they just may be.

People that don't understand what you are getting at just don't have the same thoughts, but those of us that have similar thoughts understand EXACTLY where your post is coming from.

It's not that smart people are the only ones that think about the whole life-is-meaningless point, it's just that people with intellectual limitations cannot grasp some of the concepts that makes the argument so depressing at times.

And I love playing craps just for the fact that I can be as superstitious as I want.

DN

BigBaitsim (milo)

07-10-2004, 01:07 AM

I host a dealer's choice game at my house once or twice a month. It has a $20 buy-in, which is nothing but rounding error when you play 4 tables of 2/4 and 3/6. At my home game I chase gutshots, play 50% of flops in Omaha-8 and Holdem, and never fail to at least see fourth street in stud. I'm better than most of the other players (a few of whom are truly awful), so I never really lose much, but it feels really good to be "bad" sometimes. I don't make a big deal out of my play, and the guys wanted to take a crack at a "high stakes" game once and so we played 2/4 holdem (hey, to college profs, this is high stakes). I played my A game that time, and nobody has expressed an interest to play those stakes again. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

astroglide

07-10-2004, 01:43 AM

re-read my response. it is completely on the money.

daryn

07-10-2004, 04:01 AM

wow, again i think a lot of you may have misinterpreted my posts in this thread.

in no way was i trying to say that because i deem myself to be of above average intelligence that i somehow can't be happy. i'm not depressed often, i'm actually very happy and i love life itself!

Homer

07-10-2004, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
re-read my response. it is completely on the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

gamblore99

07-11-2004, 12:14 AM

there are way to many posts to read so im not going to. but u can go to a casino, gamble and have fun. Although the house has a slight edge, u can still win, and win big because the laws of probability apply to large samples.

playemlikeAA

07-11-2004, 11:35 AM

1) Get your spelling right-- (recognized and civilization)

2) You are belittling other peoples' explanation of existence for no other reason than it does not match your beliefs. Because we cannot prove either situation it is foolish to put down anyone's opinion as inferior. Opinions about God are just that... OPINIONS

By the way....I would love to hear a source for your "pretty much recognized fact." Who recognizes it?

Because you look down on believers, you are just as ignorant as the believers who look down on you. Intolerance for other peoples' ideas characterizes a large aspect of what it means to be ignorant.

It may not be apparent to you from my comments, but I consider myself an atheist/ agnostic/ deist. I am not religious, but I do have great respect for all religions

playemlikeAA

07-11-2004, 11:52 AM

You know, it is possible to be intelligent without a depressed outlook. Some of us are able to contemplate the universe without letting questions of meaning cause us misery in our everyday lives.

I don't have to know life's meaning. Being alive, no matter what it means, still has to be looked at as a gift. OK, so maybe we are insignificant; nothing we do really matters..... Well, if that holds true, then the only logical way to proceed is to accept this and seek joy in the time we do have. Read Sartre's Nausea, you'll see what I am talking about.

chim17

07-11-2004, 01:57 PM

I've been playing 3/6 and 5/10 for awhile online. I do it for many hours a week.

When I play our traditional 5 dollar rebuy NL hold em event I play loose and dumb. I have fun with it, the money isn't important and I blow off some steam and don't worry about odds, hard decisions, etc. I'll raise with QT and try to buy pots off with 72 just to do it. It's certainly -EV but the -EV doesn't matter and I just have a fun gambling night.

2283

07-11-2004, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so maybe we are insignificant; nothing we do really matters..... Well, if that holds true, then the only logical way to proceed is to accept this and seek joy in the time we do have. Read Sartre's Nausea, you'll see what I am talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

if "that" holds true, then what difference does it make it we proceed in a logical way? what is the benefit of proceeding logically vs. illogically?

if someone believes that nothing he does really matters, the most "logical" thing for him to do is to spend all his energy trying to prove himself wrong. because if he somehow is wrong and billions of "religious" people are right, he might lose something of infinite value. if he's right, on the other hand, he's lost nothing because nothing he did really mattered anyway.

it can't possibly be +EV to assign the possibility that supernatural things exist and we are involved with them to zero, because you admittedly gain nothing of real value if you are right since we all die and all end up with nothing. even if there is a .000001% chance that god exists and what you believe about god and how you live determines whether you possess anything of value after all, the "ignorant" people betting their meager lives on it are infinitely better investors than the people claiming their eyes can see everything that exists and their brains can comprehend so much that the truth about the universe couldnt possibly escape them.

living a life 100% convinced of atheism is like walking into a casino and being given a $1000 chip and told you can either put it on a 1/1,000,000 shot that god exists and cares whether you believe in him or you can eat it, and you swallow the damn thing because you think 1/1,000,000 odds aren't long enough.

blackaces13

07-11-2004, 03:33 PM

It seems to assume that people who don't believe in a God will somehow be punished if they turn out to be "wrong" in the afterlife. Being that I do not believe in, nor do I fear that premise the whole thing is likewise meaningless.

If there is a God, he'll understand why I didn't believe in him. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

spamuell

07-11-2004, 04:12 PM

I don't disagree with the main points of your posts but:

[ QUOTE ]

1) Get your spelling right-- (recognized and civilization)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a recognised fact that different cultures and civilisations have different ways of spelling certain words. I don't know where mackthefork is from but if it is the UK then he has spelt these words correctly.

2283

07-11-2004, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to assume that people who don't believe in a God will somehow be punished if they turn out to be "wrong" in the afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't have to assume that, you have to assume some possibility of that.

Fitz

07-11-2004, 10:24 PM

This is an interesting topic because I just had this discussion with my best friend who is a craps dealer at one of our riverboat casinos. We were talking about the days when we went to Vegas together and had a blast playing craps. It was before I played poker seriously and before he became a dealer.

Even then, I realized craps was a -EV game, but I was, and still am, a devotee of the line bet and 2 come bets with odds method of play. You can never turn a -EV proposition into a +EV proposition, but by using that method at the crap table, and raising your bets systematically as you win, you can do quite well when the swing is in your favor. In a 10x odds environment, the house edge is cut to ~.18 of a percentage point. Since they supply a game, dealers and free drinks, this isn't too bad.

To address your question directly, I am glad I know and understand these things so I am spared the temptation to make really huge -EV bets in the casino. Does that mean I never fool around with a slot machine? No, I've got a close friend, beautiful blonde girl(still not sure if this is + EV or -EV), who loves the Monopoly slot machines. Have I ever pissed away a $100 bucks there to make her happy? I have found this -EV play can often lead to a ++EV situation later in the night.

My point.... it's a trade off between our knowledge and having some fun, and occasionally, you have to say what the...

Good luck all,

Fitz

astroglide

07-12-2004, 12:34 AM

very insightful, homer. it only looks worse now.

Homer

07-12-2004, 08:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
very insightful, homer. it only looks worse now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, everyone here already knows that I have a big ego.

astroglide

07-12-2004, 12:22 PM

the primary issue is the laziness

ScottTheFish

07-12-2004, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It's pretty much a recognised fact, that god (or all religion) is a tool of the state created to manipulate the masses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know where you got that, but there was religion and/or a belief in a higher power long before there were states or governments.

It seems to me that religion rose out of immutable human nature, the need to try and explain and understand the world around us. Before the advent of science only a few hundred years ago, all of nature was prety much an unexplainable mystery.

I agree that in certain cases religion was used as a tool of government, the Anglican church for example. But I think it's quite a stretch to say God or religion is an invention of governments.

playemlikeAA

07-12-2004, 05:52 PM

Sorry.... I stand corrected. Of course I meant no offence towards UK members... only the previous poster. haha

playemlikeAA

07-12-2004, 06:11 PM

I didn't make myself clear in the previous post

A) I personally do not believe that we are insignificant and nothing matters. I was speaking hypothetically. If the poster whom I was responding to believes unwaveringly that there is no God and no purpose in life (not even 1/1,000,000), then it does not make sense for him to brood about it for the rest of his life and be miserable. If one is a steadfast existentialist, then why not get out there and enjoy what little time is provided?

I am familiar with Pascal's wager. Personally I firmly believe in one religious principle only. If one lives life helping others and being a good person, then that is all any God expects. I believe that good works mean much more than homage based on fear of possible hell.

bernie

07-12-2004, 07:17 PM

At times, yes. I've actually mentioned this type of thing to some of my friends when we go out to a casino and have fun. I just don't get a big charge out of the risk factor.

I see people on the craps/BJ/Pai gow tables having a blast, whooping it up. I can get into it sometimes, but not even close to that level at all. I just know too clearly in the back of my mind that it's a losing proposition.

Maybe it would help if i had 2 hookers with big cans on either side... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Interesting post.

b

Homer

07-12-2004, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the primary issue is the laziness

[/ QUOTE ]

But I use capital letters...

blackaces13

07-12-2004, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you don't have to assume that, you have to assume some possibility of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as we're considering that possibility then I guess we may as well account for the possibilty that all those who do not believe in unicorns here on Earth will be punished eternally in the afterlife as well. So now I have to believe in unicorns as well because hey, "what if" right?

How about if in the afterlife only those who did NOT believe in a God becuse of all the worldly evidence presented to them are deemed by "God" to be the only ones worthy of eternal bliss, and all the others who believed in a God or Gods are punished even though they were right? That's the converse of Pascal's wager and its just as plausible to me.

Because I put the probabilty of being punished by not believing in any God at about the same as being punished for not believeing in unicorns (or even for being rewarded for my lack of faith) we can see how Pascal's wager is actually quite silly when you really break it down.

blackaces13

07-12-2004, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If one is a steadfast existentialist, then why not get out there and enjoy what little time is provided?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is directed at me then let me assure you that this is indeed what I attempt to do. The lack of faith is actually the ultimate motivator because "this is IT". I was only trying to point out that it is made somewhat more difficult once you truly make peace with the fact that everything really is meaningless. As I posted originally its a bit of a catch 22. The conclusion that I ultimately come to however is exactly the one which I quoted you as saying.

David Sklansky

07-12-2004, 10:40 PM

"If you've taken to blaming your depression on intelligence you really need to give your head a shake, or a shrink... "

Actually I've read studies where they have asked both normal and depressed people to make predictions about the future. Those predictions were then rated as overly optimistic, realistic, or overly pessmistic. It tunrned out that the depressed peoples responses were rated the most realistic.

2283

07-13-2004, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If the poster whom I was responding to believes unwaveringly that there is no God and no purpose in life (not even 1/1,000,000), then it does not make sense for him to brood about it for the rest of his life and be miserable.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he is right then it makes no difference whether or not he does things that make no sense.

[ QUOTE ]
If one is a steadfast existentialist, then why not get out there and enjoy what little time is provided?

[/ QUOTE ]

why not indeed. why not set old people's houses on fire? it doesnt matter how you live or how you die if in a trillion years everything has been erased anyway.

2283

07-13-2004, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As long as we're considering that possibility then I guess we may as well account for the possibilty that all those who do not believe in unicorns here on Earth will be punished eternally in the afterlife as well. So now I have to believe in unicorns as well because hey, "what if" right?

[/ QUOTE ]

of course. if you have some reason to believe, based on some testimony of another person or some evidence that you have seen perhaps, that it is remotely possible that believing in unicorns has eternal benefit then it makes perfect sense to spend energy trying to find out if you may be able to believe in unicorns. as long as you are using your energy with the honest intent to find eternal purpose you are better off than not.

[ QUOTE ]
How about if in the afterlife only those who did NOT believe in a God becuse of all the worldly evidence presented to them are deemed by "God" to be the only ones worthy of eternal bliss, and all the others who believed in a God or Gods are punished even though they were right? That's the converse of Pascal's wager and its just as plausible to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually thought you might reply with this. if you think this is plausible then you should be expending energy to find out if it might be true. either one is remotely possible, so both may be investigated. i have found in my experience that it seems much more likely that people who believe in god will be rewarded rather than the other way around, as billions of others have decided as well. im not saying that anything billions of people have decided must be true, im only saying that the fact they believe it may and probably should be taken into account when comparing pascal's wager with the "converse" as you call it. you should be looking into it, as the resources you would be expending are admittedly worth nothing to you long-term.

[ QUOTE ]
Because I put the probabilty of being punished by not believing in any God at about the same as being punished for not believeing in unicorns (or even for being rewarded for my lack of faith) we can see how Pascal's wager is actually quite silly when you really break it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think it is silly to set the probabilities equal because the vast majority of the minds in the world evaluate them so drastically differently. again, not that it proves anything, but it seems more reasonable to assign greater probability to the one that is nearly universally accepted.

after all, either or both of us may be wrong *gasp, and i think you should acknowledge that. if your worldview is accurate then we are in the same boat, if mine is you are underwater. if you can accept a remote chance that i am right you should be very worried about it.

playemlikeAA

07-13-2004, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if someone believes that nothing he does really matters, the most "logical" thing for him to do is to spend all his energy trying to prove himself wrong. because if he somehow is wrong and billions of "religious" people are right, he might lose something of infinite value. if he's right, on the other hand, he's lost nothing because nothing he did really mattered anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
How would it be possible for such a person to prove what others have been debating since the beginning of time? The whole point is that there is no proof.

In all your posts you assume that a life, in and of itself, is worthless unless something follows it. Life inherently has value, which you are drastically underestimating. An unbeliever who tries his whole life to prove God's existence does loose something of value.... LIFE!

As for setting people's houses on fire, I do not see that as conducive to living life to the fullest. The way I choose to live life is not contingent upon fear of a vengeful deity. Fulfillment comes through love of others and self. If there is a God, he will see the way I am trying to live my life and can judge me by that. No God? Then I will have had a good run in the time I had. This is the perfect +EV.

playemlikeAA

07-13-2004, 04:59 AM

I was actually referring to this poster...

[ QUOTE ]
I have a lot of friends that are blissfully ignorant of the deeper issues in life. I constantly envy them for their ability to find happiness just by having a great girlfriend/wife, having career goals, friends, etc. These things(or mostly anything) have never made me happy for a sustained period(although some do keep me content on a day-to-day basis). It's the whole blissfully ignorant idiot vs. tortured genius(not calling myself a genius) debate. I realize that they aren't mutually exclusive, but for certain personalities they just may be.

People that don't understand what you are getting at just don't have the same thoughts, but those of us that have similar thoughts understand EXACTLY where your post is coming from.

It's not that smart people are the only ones that think about the whole life-is-meaningless point, it's just that people with intellectual limitations cannot grasp some of the concepts that makes the argument so depressing at times.

And I love playing craps just for the fact that I can be as superstitious as I want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blaming depression on intelligence is just sad.

Nikla

07-13-2004, 08:15 AM

Interesting thread.
It seems most of the arguments made are based upon different definitions of "intelligence", and quite frankly there is no one correct definition of the word. I believe a point can be made in support of the original poster if by intelligence you include the ability to pick up vague nuances in your social environment. Alot of depression come from not feeling like you belong in one way or another. This feeling is largely based on one's perception, and then the deeper cognitive structures analyse and interpret the information that is readily available. This is not a causal link however, since both perception, state of mind, previous experience in similar situations etc, are all correlated. If anyone have doubts in regards to if/how our cognitions affect our mental health I recommend "Aaron Beck - Cognitive therapy of depression"

One quick yet somewhat unrelated example, I'm sure some of you have heard it before:
You're at the store and you have either a) 5 or b) 15 chocolatebars to choose from. After eating it, how satisfied will you be in scenario a) versus scenaria b)?

anatta

07-14-2004, 05:34 AM

One of the "cognitive distortions" of depressed people that Dr. David Burns writes about is "Fortune Telling error". This is where the depressed person will have thoughts about the future that are filled with failure and doom with no objective evidence to support the conclusion. Like "I am going to fail this test, its going to be awful, I'll be kicked out of school, humiliated, etc..." thinks the straight A student. So I don't see how the depressed person can be seeing future events more accurately than a non-depressed person. It seems to me that by definition, a depressed persons thoughts are negative to the extreme whether the subject of these thoughts is the future, his or her self image, a past experience, etc. Unless the non-depressed persons thoughts about the future are way too opitmistic or just stupid, I would think non-depressed more realistic.

Loci

07-14-2004, 07:26 AM

Read your quote on the topic of innocence... good comment. Also, go blue! I went to Huron and am living in ypsi, (though I'm moving next month). If you're looking for a game, my roommate and crew are always looking for another player.
-Eric

EjnarPik

07-14-2004, 08:05 AM

Never.

I do enjoy the times where my better play makes me gamble on a +EV base. In a Pot limit omaha game yesterday, I won a big pot, where me and another playerput all our chips to the middle, and I was favourite (And I won.Otherwise I might not have enjoyed it as much).I try to get my adrenalin high, and satisfy my need to gamble that way.

When all the chips are in the pot, and you know "all" that has to happen, is that your opponent do not catch on the river (Or you have to catch one of 20 cards yourself), I get the feeling you long for, but on a +Ev base. (At least sometimes.)

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks.