Six to the turn and my hand hits

[Bill Smith]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: BILL is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
BILL calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

As you can see, this was a very LP table, so I felt perfectly fine about playing A7s.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, BILL calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB folds.

Bad flop call? I only have 3 safe outs, and while I'm getting 8:1 on the call, I've got a lot of people acting behind me.

Turn: (6.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">BILL...

Comments on all streets appreciated. Bet out or go for the C/R? I'm curious how everyone would play this and why. Note: BB bet the flop and just checked, so I don't have him/her to rely on for a bet.

[prayformojo]

I would probably have raised the flop for information, and if called bet out on the turn, but I await responses from those far more experienced than I. I am trying to play second pair top kicker pretty aggressively these days. Would a flop raise make more sense than the call here?

[citizenkn]

I like the call on the flop (as opposed to raising). You won't get rid of anyone chasing the flush draw, and you WANT anyone else with an ace to go along, because if you do hit your hand, you'll take their money.

[chief444]

I would have raised the flop bet. You certainly had the odds to at least call though. You have more than 3 safe outs here. You have two 7's, 2-3 A's depending on whether the A /images/graemlins/club.gif is clean or not, and a backdoor flush draw. But as I said I think a raise is better.

I would bet right out on the turn.

[LowDown22]

I call the flop here too. At this level, I don't think you knock out anyone with any part of the board, flush draw, straight draw, or overcards. But I certainly don't fold.

On turn, I'm betting out just because I likely have the best hand and don't want to give free cards to draws. I don't like the checkraise because there's a chance no one bets, and straight and flush draws will likely have odds to call either way.

[TommyTutone]

Nothing fancy here. I would simply bet as nobody will expect you to have the two pair. Anyone else with an ace will ride along and with any luck you will scare off the flush draws (not likely).

[tiltaholic]

hmm. I think I'd definitely lead out on the turn. People like to check around when the ace drops and the last thing you want is not to get bets in the pot now. On the flop, I'd probably raise it to clear out people with face cards, but I think I bleed chips on hands like this. Too many opponents for that? Maybe this is wrong thinking, but don't you -want- the flush draws to stick around?

[chief444]

The flush draws aren't going anywhere. But the reason I raise this flop is there is a pretty decent chance hero holds the best hand and you don't want people with two hole cards in the 9-K range calling here. The raise either forces them to fold or gives them incorrect odds to call. Either way is better than you calling and them calling with proper odds.

[Greg J]

No one commenting on this hand so far has commented on the preflop call. Even at a super loose table, is limping in with A7s acceptable? I make it a routine, even at the loosest of tables, to fold AXs UTG. Mid position, MAYBE I will limp, depending on the number of callers. CO and button yes.

Am I making a mistake?

[chief444]

At a loose/passive table (typical party .5/1 table) limping pf with Axs is fine.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
At a loose/passive table (typical party .5/1 table) limping pf with Axs is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even UTG??

[tiltaholic]

yeah. i'll limp Axs from any position if the table is routinely passive and there are usually a bunch of players to the flop (5+?) even if I'm utg. i don't play Kxs in early position, unless the table is really loose and passive.

[Bill Smith]

Well, as it turned out, the bet was the right play as it is very clear on the river that nobody was holding an ace. A win is a win, but I was wondering if/where I could've sucked out more money.

You guys really like raising the turn with MPTK? That's not a common play for me, and I'm having a difficult time understanding the logic behind it.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, BB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11.50 BB, between Hero and MP3.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (11.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 7d Ad (full house, aces full of sevens).
MP3 shows 8d Ts (two pair, aces and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.50 BB. </font>

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At a loose/passive table (typical party .5/1 table) limping pf with Axs is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even UTG??

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to see a track record of 5+ people limping to the flop and very little PF raising to make this play. Add a couple aggressive players and I probably fold PF. Like I said, it was a situation where I was comfortable with it.

[Greg J]

Okay then... maybe I am playing too tight.

Let me ask this: about what percentage of all hands (including the blinds) are you guys playing? I am usually around 25% (I dont have pokertracker).

[secada]

yup, even UTG. If you don't feel comfortable playing Axs UTG at a Party micro-limit table, then it's time to go to another table.

nice hand!

[tiltaholic]

Nice hand.

Ok. Here is my newb take on the flop raise (I assume thats what you meant, not turn raise). In this particular case the situation is complicated by the flush draw, but lets say the flop was a rainbow. It isn't unreasonable to assume that no one has an 8 - you could be ahead with your A7. In that case, the raise is both to get more money in the pot because I believe I'm have a decent shot at winning unimproved right now and also to clear out other people holding kings through nines, who would call one bet but not two. Now throwing the flush draw back into the mix, since they aren't folding for one or two bets, they're not really affected by the difference between calling and raising - I'll deal with a 3rd club if and when it happens. Does that reasoning make sense?

[chief444]

25% seems fine I suppose but I probably average a little higher than that at .5/1 party. I don't know exactly but it isn't that unusual for me to be closer to 30% in a session. At passive tables you're usually at 15%+ just including the blinds.

[tiltaholic]

Thats around my number too.
Including blinds I see 26-27% of flops.
Not including blinds I see 19-21% of flops.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
yup, even UTG. If you don't feel comfortable playing Axs UTG at a Party micro-limit table, then it's time to go to another table.


[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough! My inquiries were, of course, for my own edification and education, not an attempt to argue. I think my PF play may be a bit too tight as of late. Plus, I'm not that informed about what a Party .5/1 game is like, as I do not yet have a bankroll to play Party .5/1 -- but that is my goal! However, from what you all have said and the posts I have read, it is actually as loose as the nanolimits I'm still stuck on.

[Greg J]

Thanks for the comments guys. My numbers don't seen too out of whack the, though they are a but lower for me outside of the blinds, most sessions at least.

[Jaran]

Hey Bill,
I haven't read the other responses, so forgive any repeat advice (unless I'm so far wrong that no one agrees with me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ). PF is fine. On the flop, I think you have more than 3 clean outs. I count 4 (2 7's 2 non-club A's). So you need 11:1 and the pot is giving you 8:1. But given your read, I would think you can count on 2-3 callers behind you (and you actually got 4) so I think it's fine.
On the turn, I'm in favor of betting out, and hoping for a raise so I can 3bet.

-Jaran

[Bill Smith]

Yes, of course it's 4 outs... I must've been ignoring the fact that the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif is already out and therefore both 7's are good. Brain fart when I wrote that - thanks Jaran.

With so many players behind, I was more afraid of a raise than not having enough callers to get my 11:1. Likewise, in hindsight, I wanted to C/R (but didn't) because I figured one of the 6 remaining players would bet. Logic failure: these are the same passive players who let me get into pots cheap with A7s. Betting was the right play. Thanks all!

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yup, even UTG. If you don't feel comfortable playing Axs UTG at a Party micro-limit table, then it's time to go to another table.


[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough! My inquiries were, of course, for my own edification and education, not an attempt to argue. I think my PF play may be a bit too tight as of late. Plus, I'm not that informed about what a Party .5/1 game is like, as I do not yet have a bankroll to play Party .5/1 -- but that is my goal! However, from what you all have said and the posts I have read, it is actually as loose as the nanolimits I'm still stuck on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll be the voice of the opposition here. I don't like Ax suited utg. I'll agree that if your inclination is to play it and you are pretty confident of the table conditions you can probably do it. But I sure wouldn't change my style to start doing it just because other people are.

There are some very good players who'll tell you its a bad idea...now most of em aren't playing .5/1.00 but their reasoning is sound. (And, to be fair, there are some pretty good players who'll tell you to do it if you've got the right kind of table.)

A-x suited is a real long shot hand. I like to have some better indication that I'm going to have good conditions for playing it than that the table history has been generally favorable.

If you come in with it late with say three limpers, even if you get a raise behind you at least you are likely to get paid off if you hit. Utg you could have some disaster like a raised pot vrs one opponent. With a really predicatable table maybe that's a risk you feel comfortable with...and then again, maybe not. And if you don't have a predictable, lots of floppers, few PF raisers--table, it's a really iffy play, IMHO.

I think people want to play A-x suited, because its such a monster hand when you make it...and so its easy to look for reasons to play it.

--Zetack

edit: OH, and the later you are with A-x suited, the better situated you are to extract the most with it when it hits. Postition doesn't suck even in micro.

[tiltaholic]

Good post. Often the opposing point of view never gets voiced like this. Thanks. I completely agree that thexe Axs hands are easy enough to play postflop that I justify playing them. I am thinking of moving up from .5/1 soon and I am guessing hands like Axs in early position will be the first to go as I tighten up and the games get more aggressive.
-t

[HajiShirazu]

I don't like Axs UTG except at tables like this. If the flop is going to be seven ways for one bet then I am definately going to take my chances with Axs.
I like raising on the flop-there's a reasonable chance you are ahead here and by folding out others you increase your chances to win. With a diamond out you at least have to see the turn.

[Peter Harris]

good read on the table for PF limp.

flop - raise, you have 2nd pair top kicker and backdoor flush draw. 2 bets cold will drive out most players.

you have 4 clean outs, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif and another diamond helps too.

turn - bet out.

Regards,
Pete Harris