Gagne's Save Record

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Just how impressive is it? Where does it compare to other "great" records?

[adios]

...........

[Sooga]

In terms of unbreakability, I'd say it's way, way up there, perhaps just a notch below Ripken and DiMaggio's streaks. Relievers blow saves all the time, to save 84 in a row is unreal. That's basically 2 full seasons without blowing one.

On the other hand, in terms of respectability, this streak is pretty much way down there. Saves are a pretty much BS stat. Like Billy Beane says, when you have a lead in the 9th, you'll win about 98% of the time. When you have a closer, you'll win about 99% of the time.

[nolanfan34]

Unless you're the Indians, and you bring in David Riske.

[andyfox]

I agree that the save can be a BS statistic. But Gagne had 84 in a row. I'll take him. The guy who's earned the most saves the last seven or eight years is Mariano Rivera. I'll take him too. John Smoltz had fifty saves last year. I'll take him as well. While managers may not be using their closers optimally, the guys with the most saves are usually the best relief pitchers.

[DougBrennan]

My hatred for the Dodgers does not preclude my holding the opinion that Gagne is, at this moment, perhaps the greatest relief pitcher in any moment of time. Whether or not he and his arm can survive long enough to change "any moment of time" to "history" will, of course, only be answered in time.

And I think that the record will be difficult to break, if only because the calender time needed to aaccomplish the feat is so long, almost two years, and it is difficult to perform almost flawlessly for that length of time.

However, 84 saves, IMO, cannot be compared to records such as DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streatk or Hersheiser's consecutive shoutout innings streak. As others have ponted out, saves just aren't that hard to come by. It is not at all rare for a pitcher who has never done the job before to pick up 20-30 or more saves in their first year of closer duty.

Doug

[Sooga]

Hey I'd be the last guy to poo poo what Gagne has done. It's been unreal watching him completely dominate hitters for 2 years. I'd take Gagne over any closer in the league right now.

What I am saying though is that the 84 consecutive saves will never be mentioned in the same breath as the 'legendary' streak-records like 56 game hit-streak, or 2,632 consecutive games played, or 59 consecutive shutout innings. Saves are just too flighty of a stat.

[Sooga]

Hey, the man's name is Riske, what do you expect?

[J.R.]

Compared to other statistics, a save is much more subject to the efforts of others and does not lend itself as well to comparison as other stats. If you consistently are handed the ball with a 3 run lead and no one on base for a team not involved in a pennant race its far easier to earn a save than if the situation is more threatening and your team is in a pennant race where each game "counts" and your saves are of a different quality than the saves of someone whose teams don't present the closer with such rosy situations.

That said, Gange has 3 "out" pitches (he calls his changeup his out pitch, but he can stirke anyone out with any of his pitches) he can throw at different speeds (fastball in the upper 90s, a change-up around 10 miles an hour less with screwball action and mean drop which comes from the same delivery as his fastball and a slow curve in the low 70s upper 60s) and for a strike at any time in the count and is not afraid to go after a hitter and challenege them, so he rarely walks guys. Sick. Real sick. I only wish the Dodgers were more competitive so we could have a better frame of reference from which to compare him with Rivera.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, the man's name is Riske, what do you expect?

[/ QUOTE ]

Should have known better before taking him for one of my fantasy teams. Yes, I'm bitter.

Gagne's record is impressive, but pales in comparison to Hershiser's streak IMO. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that Hershiser's streak is even more impressive than DiMaggio's. While consecutive games with a hit is impressive, it's completely arbitrary. What player holds the record for the most games with a hit in a season? That would be interesting to see, as they likely had many small streaks during that season, which might have only been broken up by a game here and there.

A streak like DiMaggios also doesn't reflect a team's record during that time. A player could have a long hit streak, yet their team could go winless during that streak. How valuable can such a streak be then?

Of course it's a great accomplishment, and while I don't know that anyone will top 56 straight games, I always think it is a bit overblown, and more a product of baseball nostalgia that keeps it at the top of the all-time accomplishments list.

Hershiser and Gagne's streaks resulted in wins for their teams, which I think is important.

Personally, I think the A's consecutive win streak a couple of years ago was incredible.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
My hatred for the Dodgers does not preclude my holding the opinion that Gagne is, at this moment, perhaps the greatest relief pitcher in any moment of time. Whether or not he and his arm can survive long enough to change "any moment of time" to "history" will, of course, only be answered in time.

And I think that the record will be difficult to break, if only because the calender time needed to aaccomplish the feat is so long, almost two years, and it is difficult to perform almost flawlessly for that length of time.

However, 84 saves, IMO, cannot be compared to records such as DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streatk or Hersheiser's consecutive shoutout innings streak. As others have ponted out, saves just aren't that hard to come by. It is not at all rare for a pitcher who has never done the job before to pick up 20-30 or more saves in their first year of closer duty.

Doug

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would prefer to have Gagne on the mound saving the game over Rivera?

[DougBrennan]

So you would prefer to have Gagne on the mound saving the game over Rivera?


In a heartbeat. I just wish he weren't doing it for the Dodgers.

Doug

[andyfox]

Agree. And over the years, the definition of a save has changed considerably.

[andyfox]

I'm a Yankee fan and, yes, I'd take Gagne. It's in the numbers. If Rivera has blown 5 of his last 85 (not sure what the number really is) and Gagne just 1, you take Gagne. Plus he's younger and has more pitches.

Not that Rivera is chopped liver. He may be the greatest ever, considering his entire career. His ERA this year is microscopic. But right now Gagne is number one.

[ThaSaltCracka]

its pretty impressive, but nowhere near as impressive as DiMaggio's streak or Ripkens because Gagne doesn't play everyday, those two did.