What makes a "tough" player tough?

[Guy F]

I can't say I'm a total newbie, as I'm now closing in on a year of playing online, but I wouldn't count myself as more than a beginner, playing .50/1 limit and .25/.50 PL and NL 2-3 nights a week. Hey, I'm a cheapskate!

There are a zillion posts in different places about loose players, and it's been interesting lurking in the middle limit forum to read about how better players play. Here's the dilemma I have at my current level of understanding. From what I can tell, a "tough" player will put a lot of pressure on you by raising at various times, with middle pair or even nothing if he thinks you'll fold. The trouble for me is that a loose aggressive player does similar things. The tough player will call or raise your bluffs, but so will the loose player. I'm trying to sort out the differences between them, either in betting action or reasons behind their actions. Is it just a matter of the tough player reading others better - knowing or suspecting that a given play will succeed against player A but not with player B? Obviously I have much to learn, but that's why I'm here!

[Randy Burgess]

A "tough" player will generally be playing much tighter and so won't be leaking chips like a loose-aggressive. Genuinely tough players will be quite rare at the limits you're playing.

[Guy F]

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Genuinely tough players will be quite rare at the limits you're playing.

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Oh I quite agree - but I like to "railbird" at 10/20 and up online to see how the other half lives. Sometimes the aggression just looks loose to my untrained eyes, so I'm trying to discern what they're thinking. I guess it could just be some genuinely loose players with lots of money to blow, though.

[lunchmeat]

Just because somebody plays 10/20 does not make them good. When I play live a 10/20 game will often play the same as a .50/1 game online. So I think you're right that a lot of the players you see in the bigger games are fish with more money to burn than the average fish.

In my opinion a tough player is tough because he or she knows how to get the maximum value out of each hand they play. In many games, a tough player can resemble a loose/aggressive maniac if the best way to beat that particular game is to continually bluff out timid players. At other times, a tough player might appear to be playing very loose/passive (such as a no-limit game with small blinds and deep money filled with "calling stations"), but they are in fact just playing in a manner which suits the particular game they are in.

So the difference to me is that a tough player who is playing loose & aggressive has the ability to "shift gears" and alter their play depending upon the situation. A loose/aggressive player, on the other hand, will always play in the same style. And since most games call for a tight/aggressive style instead of a loose/aggressive style, the loose/aggressive player will lose unless they are playing in the perfect game.

[SlyR]

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From what I can tell, a "tough" player will put a lot of pressure on you by raising at various times, with middle pair or even nothing if he thinks you'll fold. The trouble for me is that a loose aggressive player does similar things.

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The difference is that when a tough player thinks you'll fold, he's basing his opinion on solid information.

[deacsoft]

Tight-agressive play, a good amount of experience, a good base of learning (books, essays, 2+2 posts, etc), and the type of player that will always be able to admit that he/she can get better.

[scotnt73]

tough to me=experience+patience+the ability to bounce back immediately from a loss without giving it a second thought unless you are doing so to learn from it

[Sundevils21]

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Tight-agressive play, a good amount of experience, a good base of learning (books, essays, 2+2 posts, etc), and the type of player that will always be able to admit that he/she can get better.



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tough to me=experience+patience+the ability to bounce back immediately from a loss without giving it a second thought unless you are doing so to learn from it



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Very good advice

[rr2000]

tough player is one who recognizes situations and alters his style to get the best out of it. It may be making loose calls, tightening up, being aggressive or passive. His edge will be more apparent in the marginal situations. A typical player might fold, but the tough player will recognize it's a marginal situation and make plays to induce opponents to make mistakes and maximize his chances.

[Clarkmeister]

Tough players are players you avoid tangling with because you feel lost and outplayed whenever you are in a hand with them.

[SnowDog]

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Tough players are players you avoid tangling with because you feel lost and outplayed whenever you are in a hand with them.

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Unless everyone makes you feel like that, in which case I have other problems. Er, I mean, that hypotethetical person has other problems /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[stir]

Just a suggestion: When watching those 10/20 games from the rail, once you determine who is aggressive, start keeping track of how many hands he actually plays. If he is truly tough he will only play in a range of 15-25% of hands dealt. You will need to watch the guy for a few orbits of the table; 15-20 hands dealt is not enough data to make a determination.