Hand To Talk About

Here's a hand I played a few days ago in the $30-$60 game at The Bellagio.


UTG I was dealt AdAh and raised. Everyone passed to the small blind, a very loose aggressive player, who called, and the Big blind folded.


So only the two of us saw the flop which was Kd Jh 9d. The small blind bet and I called.


The turn was the 7s. The small blind bet and I called.


The river was the 3d (putting a three flush on board). The small blind checked, I bet, he called, and my hand was good.


All comments are welcome.

Seems straightforward enough, and, in the last year, the

wisdom of this line of play is becoming clearer.


My only question is:


If he bet on the River, is it a good idea to Raise?

Why didn't you raise on the turn when you had the best hand?


You waited until he could have made his flush and then bet - opening yourself up to a check-raise.


I would have raised on the turn and maybe checked on the river.


Note: You would still have won the same amout of money with less risk.

That's my two cents worth!

Posted too fast! - Overlooked the possible made straight on the flop.

He could have also had two pair or a set. Now that I think about it, I think you may have played it PERFECT!

I'm putting myself in the other guy's shoes to see if you maxed out. Let's say I had top-pair with a straight draw. Against an extremely tight predictable opponent, I would occasionally check-call the river I suppose (as opposed to check-folding) which means your slow line gave you the best chance of winning 2.5BB postflop by giving me a chance to play bad on the river. But then, against that opponent, I would have folded preflop with KQ and K-10.


Against a less predictable opponent, I would play the KQ, and would lose more on the hand if he bothered to raise at some point.


So I guess the best line with the AA again depends on perceptions.


Tommy

This reminds me of your KK Hand To Talk About from a couple months ago. You're playing heads-up with position and have an overpair to the board (It's different than that hand because then you called your opponent's pre-flop raise). But, you played this hand less aggressively. (By the way, I couldn't find the KK hand and am going by memory so I may not remember it perfectly)


I'm happy with just calling your opponent's flop bet if you intend to raise the turn. I'll play Aces this way heads-up or even three-way on the flop. In the KK hand, you raised the flop and said you did so because of the flush draw on the board. Why didn't you raise for the same reason this time?


On the turn, I'm definitely raising. Granted, there are three cards in the playing zone and it's reasonable for you opponent to have two-pair or a straight but I think you'll win this a showdown a majority of the time. Was it the number of cards in the playing zone which caused you to play less aggressively this time than with the KK hand? Or was it your opponent? Or something else?


If you had the confidence to bet the river, I can't agree not raising earlier.

Mason,


I liked the play. You played in a manner where you will lose the minimum, and you let him do the betting for you in the event you did have the best hand.


Did you put him on any type of a hand? What did you think he had? What do you think he thought you had? An UTG raise to me means a player usually only has AA AK KK QQ JJ and occasionally AQ suited.


When he bet into you on the flop, did you put him on a weak king or perhaps a weak jack?

Would he have bet the straight there, or waited until the turn.Would he have bet a flush draw?


Did you think this opponent was capable of a check raise on the end?


Did you not raise in case he had a better hand you didnt want to pay him off? Or did you not raise because you didnt want to scare him away? Did you want to have him keep donating to you?


If he check the flop, would you have bet it?


Best Wishes


MK

One of the nice things about this strategy is that you don't really need a great line on the opponents hand. You are essentially compelled to see a showdown, so whether he's bluffing or got you beat or betting top pair, this play has merits.


I know of few players who only raise big pairs and AK and AQs UTG. Adopting this strategy (unless the game is super wild) is too costly in terms of information leak.


A loose aggressive player will raise more often than this, so will often think other players do as well.


Dan Z.

Mason,


What were your reasons for not raising on the flop and/or turn?


Bob

most players i know would raise at least on the turn...but maybe you're right with a loose-aggressive player who could bet bluff, bet/raise semibluff..or actually have two pair or a str8..still seems weak tite...gl

one advantage of playing this hand this way is that it may scare players from bluffing or semibluffing into you on future hands, and allow you to steal more pots yourself, as well as take free cards.

Mason,


If your opponent is the typical “very loose and aggressive” he is most likely betting a pair with a straight card (K-Q, Q-J or J-T), a pair with a two flush (Qd-Jd or Jd-Td), a draw (T-8, Ad-Qd, or Ad-Xd) or perhaps two vulnerable pair. This player usually slowplays his better hands such as a set, two good pair, and a made straight (although he should not).


In other words, most hands he bets are ones you lead and ones he will also call a raise with. So I like calling on the flop and see what comes on the turn (if a scary card comes then just call the turn and river). But when a blank came on the turn I would raise. He calls with all combo hands, pairs, and draws. He folds almost no hand he would have bet since he should have a draw of some type to go with any made hand. He will only reraise with the hands he would have been unlikely to bet the flop in the first place.


In a nutshell, I like calling the flop and raising the turn when a blank hits.


Regards,


Rick

Rick,


If he will call the turn raise, and fold to the river bet if he does not improve, or bet or check-raise the river if he does, Mason never wins more than 2 bets, save for the case ace giving opponent 2 pair vs. trips.


So if he never wins more than 2 bets, why shoudl he risk losing more than 2?


There is a losing hand this player could have that would call Mason down for sure - AK. Two things about this - there are only 6 ways for him to have this hand, and most players, esp. LAPs, woudl 3 bet preflop with it. So I would ignore this possibility.


Dan Z.

Dan,


With most of those pair/draw hands a loose player pays off on the river. He also could be betting a draw which he would call a turn raise.


Regards,


Rick

Mason, Darling, raising the turn is correct for a number of reasons. Calling has some merits but Raising is certainly a better option in my view.


Vince

Okay, I will get to how you played the hand the way you did and why in a second.

First, against most loose aggressive players that I am familiar with I may have done this:

raise on the flop, hoping to get reraised so he bets out on the turn and I can raise him again; or, possibly flat call on the flop and then raise him on the turn. I am likely to bet the river against almost all the loose, aggressive players I know. In fact, some of them are fond of trying to raise me on the river in an attempt to bluff.


Okay, now why you played the hand the way you did: I will assume that you played it correctly;

this player probably plays you tough. He may be out to get you because you have beat him badly in the past; thus he plays a different game against you. Anyway, he may be the type that continues to bet a hand against you until you raise. Then he usually folds except for the really big hands.

So, if you raise him on the flop, he will probably be able to get away from AJ or A9 on the turn.

If you raise him on the turn, he's will certainly call with KQ,KT,QJ,JT,Q9,T9 etc.

Actually (after listening to my own explanations), the only way I could justify NOT raising this guy on the turn is if he plays some really goofy strategy against you.

I really can't see flat calling here on the turn.

Okay, I'm waiting for your explanation of this one.


Good Luck,

Thomas Giorgi

"If he bet on the River, is it a good idea to Raise?"


No, there are too many ways you are beat and might even be reraised.

"Why didn't you raise on the turn when you had the best hand?"


This is an important concept in these situations. When a player like this, very loose aggressive, leads on the flop when I obviously will bet if he checks, they are often looking for extra bets. Furthermore, they tend to make it three bets on the turn with hands that they shouldn't, such as top and bottom pair, which is bad for my over pair. Thus the idea of raising the turn is probably wrong.

"Why didn't you raise for the same reason this time?"


See my post above, but a quick answer is the tecture of the flop and the particular opponent.

"What do you think he thought you had? An UTG raise to me means a player usually only has AA AK KK QQ JJ and occasionally AQ suited."


UTG raisers should also have AQo. As for what he would think I had very loose aggressive players tend to think that their opponents play like they do. So if he even thought about this at all his range of hands (for me) would be much larger than what you suggest.

"but maybe you're right with a loose-aggressive player who could bet bluff, bet/raise semibluff..or actually have two pair or a str8..still seems weak tite...gl"


The reson it's not weak tight is that you may get three bet by two pair, plus you may get your loose aggressive opponent to fire away or pay off on the river with a relatively weak hand.

"This player usually slowplays his better hands such as a set, two good pair, and a made straight (although he should not)."


I don't agree. A lot of these very loose and aggressive players will go for three bets in this spot instead of two. So I see it differently against some people.


See my posts above to answer your other comments.

Well, that's the key to many poker hands. That why I said "very loose aggressive." Agains a different player things would be different.

Tom:


See my posts above.

I would imagine that, if this were the case, he and I would have gone back and forth on bluff/semi-bluff raises several times recently.


As such, I would want to raise him at some point, to make it look like I was trying to get him to drop (and for information, and to win more money).


But for all I know, to him, your calls look like bluffs, or something.


leroy

"If you had the confidence to bet the river, I can't agree not raising earlier."


I feel that the opponent's check on the river significantly increases the likelihood that MM's hand is good, and that MM can therefore bet the river with added condfidence.

If I had a pair and a flush draw or top 2 on the turn here, I would generally reraise, and if Mason folds against either of these hands, he making an error (in the former case, an enormous error).


BTW, I would never have these hands against an UTG raise from Mason, but I digress...


Dan Z.

I think the reason a lot of the above posters are suggesting that you raise the turn is that they believe your opponent will or should fold a pair+gutshot type hand if you raise. But if your opponent is loose-aggressive, he'll reraise you with that holding.


Of course, if you were sure your holding was better than his I think you would raise the turn.