They Should Be Fired!

I decided to post this seperately even though it could have been placed under Bill Murphy's post below.


I don't know all the details as to why the dealers were fired at the Horseshoe, and I'm certainly not a fan of many of the decisions that the Horseshoe management has made concerning this year's (and last years) WSOP, especially the 6 percent fee. But based on what I know, I do agree with them on this one.


Here's the way I see things. First, I don't like the idea of a mandatory 3 percent tip taken out of the prize pool. I believe that players have the right not to tip if that is what they choose to do. Of course, I would only recommend that this be done if the service is exceptionally bad, but I don't feel that this option should be taken away. However, many tournaments have gone to this procedure so it is not the issue.


However, taking 3 percent out of the prize pool, as they did last year, was way too much given that the entry fees at the WSOP are so much higher than they are for virtually all other tournaments. So when 1 1/2 percent went to the dealers, they, in my opinion got way too much.


Now I believe that the dealers, and all other floor personnel, should be paid a fair wage. But if you talk to dealers who dealt last year and previous years, they will quietly tell you that last year's tokes were unbelievably good.


This year things are very different. The HS chose to take 6 percent of the prize pool as the entry fee -- a figure which I believe is way too high --and left the tipping up to the players again. The result is that the dealer's share, when compared to last year is way off. But this doesn't mean that they aren't getting paid at a fair rate. My understanding, and I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong, is that the HS WSOP tournament dealers are making approximately what a typical poker dealer makes in a typical Las Vegas poker room.


So this brings us to the dealers who got fired. I guess it is their right to complain about their wages/tokes being less than last year. But I do have a problem with their threatening to walk out at the time when they are needed the most, especially since I believe that they were receiving a fair wage. It might not be the greatest wage, and some of them might have been legitimately disappointed, but from the little that I know, they were still getting paid fairly.


I know that this editorial will make me very unpopular with some of the dealers in town, but as long as the wage/tokes they were getting is fair, I believe that Becky Behnen was right to dismiss them.


All comments are welcome, and if someone can correct my assumptions above I will be glad to change my opinion.

dealers whine a lot about not makin enough. dealers neglect to say how much they got last year at series. extortion isnt right. if they aint makin enough go elsewhere. its no different than any other worker has to do in USA. 6% entry fees too high for me and you but to a bunch of players it wasnt. theyll come back next year too if its 6%. online poker shows that many like more hands per hour dealt and no toking. dealers couldnt hope to deal as fast or well as in online rooms. hopefully b&m rooms will feel a need to improve tech and dealers will go the way of the dinasaur. what player would complain about more hands per hour and no tipping. dont know what could be done tech wise but i would think something. and b&m rooms increase the drop at same time. that dude that was complainin about makin $5.00 an hour might have to get a job similar to many others in USA or start playin himself. im tired of whining d*mn dealers good riddance.

"My understanding, and I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong, is that the HS WSOP tournament dealers are making approximately what a typical poker dealer makes in a typical Las Vegas poker room."


If this is true, having dealt the WSOP in past years, I believe you are not taking into account that many experienced, professional dealers come to Vegas just to deal the tournament, thus incurring expenses like travel and room and board. This would barely cover their output, and make it a worthless venture. Besides "expenses", many take a leave from their regular dealing jobs and missing out on that income besides.

ok if the shoe doesnt have enough dealers to deal they have to pay more. what am i missing? the shoe should get dealers for lowest pay possible to make most money they can. why is this different than any other business in USA? nobody is putting a gun to the dealers heads to deal at the shoe. they have the choice to stay home. the dealers go there to make more money thats it period. extra expenses are irrelevant. the dealers deal at the wsop to max their earn for the year, whats wrong with the shoe maxing their earn for the year or for that matter the players maxin their earn for the year?

"My understanding, and I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong, is that the HS WSOP tournament dealers are making approximately what a typical poker dealer makes in a typical Las Vegas poker room."


Mason,


This is probably accurate. The promise of a higher than normal wage is what draws dealers to the WSOP. Now I personally don't know how a dealer could have expected to make what they made in years past. Also it shoudl be noted that Las Vegas poekr dealers are among the lowest paid if not the lowest paid in the industry.


"But I do have a problem with their threatening to walk out at the time when they are needed the most,"


Why do you have a problem with this, it is a common ploy used by labor to negotiate with management. I do believe that the horseshoe was within their right to replace the dealers they want, but I don't believe they are right to retract an agreement they made (I don't know if that happened). What I mean is that they agreed to the dealers demands, I don't think they can say "well they would have walked out if we didnt' promise them this." I think the dealers (or anyone) has the right to withold (or threaten to withhold) their services and that management has the right to dismiss at will employees withour cause.


Randy Refeld

typical rich get richer on the back of the laborer.fair only because that is capitalism. screw the little guy there are lots of streets to sleep on.

"typical rich get richer on the back of the laborer."


pretty much the same everywhere across the USA. why should dealers be treated special?


"fair only because that is capitalism."


which also means that if the pay aint right nobody is forcing you to work it. works both ways.


"screw the little guy there are lots of streets to sleep on."


so the shoe should be providing charity to dealers? nobody is putting a gun to the dealers head to make them work at the wsop.

I have mixed opinions about this whole situation.. Let me see if I can explain.


I agree with Mason that these dealers should of been canned. Walking out on the day of 'The Big One' is just intolerable. If I walked out of my job, I would guarantee you that my employer would say 'C YA'. If I tried extorting my employer for more money.. they would also say 'C YA'


BUT....


I also know how much my salay is b4 I even go to work. These poor dealers were in a situation that they didn't. ( except of course for their base salary. Which we all know they can't rely on )


So how is the situation corrected?


This is where I disagree with Mason. I do believe that the 'tips' should come out of the prize pool. But why do they have to be called 'tips'? Take a portion of the entry fees, pay the dealers a GOOD salary and be done with it. I mean it is the World Series of Poker for crying out loud!!! A dealer is dealing cards for five bucks an hour with 2 million in cash staring right in front of him?


I have a BIG problem with the whole 'tip' thing in general when it comes to tournaments. Why should a person who places in the money be expected to tip (in some circumastances) a large portion of his/her earnings when he/she has already paid for that service in entry fees. Hell a tip isn't even tax deductible.


Let me see if I got my math right.

In the Main 35 events alone... Due to the 6% house cut.. Binion's took in $1,206,120. AND Thats just for the events!! Figure in all of the satellites entree fees and rake/time collections for the additional side action and you can see where I am going with this. They can't afford to pay the dealers WELL ( really WELL ) to avoid all that type of sh*t alltogether???? That's a bunch of BS. I mean the gold bracelets don't cost that much....


Good OL Benny started the World Series to get the best players together to see who was the best. Period....end of story. Benny took care of EVERYONE!!!! Players,Dealers,You name it. He certainly didn't start the World Series to see how much money his casino could make off of it.


Benny probably is rolling in his grave.


CJ

fair is in the eye of the beholder. let them eat cake.

most WSOP players couldn't stand 5 minutes with a "typical" vegas dealer in the box....rolled decks, stacked mucks, clumped shuffles, leave the bets out - bring some of the bets in...Not top of poker, i.e WSOP standards.

Poor/unexperienced umpires call balls and strikes in the minor leagues, and get paid accordingly. Polished, experienced, competent umpires, deal...I mean work, in the majors and get paid accordingly.

HOWEVER, umpires, at the end of the game, don't have to hope that the wining manager "takes care of them" with a nice generous tip.

Mason, does your 'logic' ever get filtered through any values other than monetary?

Oh, and BTW, major league umpires have been known, on several occassions, to not deal...again, I meant work, without an adequate compensation agreement.

see "roadhole" below

Seems, since the Behan's (Becky & son)took over Horshoe, there has one been controversy, following controversy, in many areas of the business's operation. There is a glitch in their management procedures.

The quality of umpiring in Major League Baseball is abominable. I have no idea whether it's any better than it is in the minor leagues, as I haven't been to a minor league game since about 1991. It is, however, nowhere near what it should be. I believe that this has mostly to do with the unionization of Major League umpires, but this goes well beyond the scope of this forum.